Andy Burnham fighting back against the govt

Cuthbert said:
I think it makes perfect sense to have local lockdown in areas where you've got higher infection rates. The tiered system also seems sensible. Having local leaders saying that they're going to fight it will just make local people ignore the rules, and things will get worse. It seems a risky one to kick back against.

Sadiq Khan seems to be taking a much more sensible approach, fully supporting greater locking down in London. (Despite the fact that some parts of London have much higher rates of infection than others).
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The problem is a number of scientists and the WHO have basically said, at best, lockdown defers the problem.
If the government decides to take this decision however they ought to recompense people fairly. If the ‘economics’ don’t work then they need to re visit the strategy.
 
zzzzz said:
Mnchester should have taken the controls more seriously. Burnham wouldn't have been in this position. "We messed up now we want paying for it" The numbers speak for themselves.
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The NW infections never recovered to the low levels in London in July as restrictions were removed nationwide. The government should have taken its responsibilities to the country as a while more seriously.
 
Just had Raab on BBC Breakfast lying and looking shifty throughout an interview. At one point Charlie Stayt asked him to refrain from mentioning Burnham constantly in every response to which Draab said "Ill answer in any way I want". Arrogant pr1ck.

Then this beauty. Charlie Stayt - Jonathan Van-Tam has told Andy Burnham that a national lockdown was the only way to go? Dominic Raab - "That's not the advice the government has had"

Still he is also trotting out "the best track and trace system". Trumpism at its worst.

It is obvious the day's Tory memo from Cummings is to try and rubbish Burnham in any way they can.
 
1finny said:
The problem is a number of scientists and the WHO have basically said, at best, lockdown defers the problem.
If the government decides to take this decision however they ought to recompense people fairly. If the ‘economics’ don’t work then they need to re visit the strategy.
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The WHO representative in Europe, Hans Kluge, said national lockdowns should be a last resort, but tough local restrictions should be put in place.

"Kluge, who last week said 300,000 lives could be saved by tightening restrictions, called on countries to be 'uncompromising' in their efforts to control the spread of the disease at a press briefing on Thursday. "
 
Local authorities, businesses, charities only come up with one idea: send more money. Nobody really knows what to do. The opposition should either support the government or present an actual plan which they are all prepared to commit to (PLP, mayors, TU the lot).
 
bear66 said:
The NW infections never recovered to the low levels in London in July as restrictions were removed nationwide. The government should have taken its responsibilities to the country as a while more seriously.
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Thats right blame the govt for Manchesters poor numbers. Manchester should bear the bulk of responsibility for Manchesters poor numbers.
As I've said before the govt performance has been woeful especially things like organising PPE, track and trace, testing etc but that has applied to us all. Some have areas have their own personal responsibility more seriously than others. Manchester and Liverpool being the worst. Don't sugarcoat it.

"The NW infections never recovered to the low levels in London" You said it.
 
zzzzz said:
Thats right blame the govt for Manchesters poor numbers. Manchester should bear the bulk of responsibility for Manchesters poor numbers.
As I've said before the govt performance has been woeful especially things like organising PPE, track and trace, testing etc but that has applied to us all. Some have areas have their own personal responsibility more seriously than others. Manchester and Liverpool being the worst. Don't sugarcoat it.

"The NW infections never recovered to the low levels in London" You said it.
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Yes. There was a spread from London to the Midlands to the NW and NE and restrictions were removed by the Government at just the wrong time. That's why the low levels of infection in London didn't happen in the North.

Link
 
bear66 said:
The WHO representative in Europe, Hans Kluge, said national lockdowns should be a last resort, but tough local restrictions should be put in place.

"Kluge, who last week said 300,000 lives could be saved by tightening restrictions, called on countries to be 'uncompromising' in their efforts to control the spread of the disease at a press briefing on Thursday. "
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The only think I’m highlighting is that we can all play ‘scientific/expert/evidential’ tennis (for want of a better phrase)

There is no agreement yet we have people on here happily arguing with certainty
 
bear66 said:
Yes. There was a spread from London to the Midlands to the NW and NE and restrictions were removed by the Government at just the wrong time. That's why the low levels of infection in London didn't happen in the North.

Link
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Eh? You blaming London for the Manchester infection rate. :oops: Carry on. :D
 
1finny said:
The only think I’m highlighting is that we can all play ‘scientific/expert/evidential’ tennis (for want of a better phrase)

There is no agreement yet we have people on here happily arguing with certainty
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It's very frustrating with decisions made that some agree with and some don't; others agree with decisions but not the timing. It's not surprising there is a complex debate going on.
 
Inevitable that if Labour representatives don’t say anything then the Tories accuse them of not being a proper opposition but then when they start having an opinion they are accused of playing politics.
Imagine if all this had happened under a Labour PM? The army would have been sent in by the queen by now.
 
Anton_Berg said:
Local authorities, businesses, charities only come up with one idea: send more money. Nobody really knows what to do. The opposition should either support the government or present an actual plan which they are all prepared to commit to (PLP, mayors, TU the lot).
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To be honest, I don't think money solves it. As someone mentioned on one of these threads recently, support/adherence to lockdown rules will be worse 2nd time round (for a total lockdown). I think that's partly why a local tiered system is good (in theory). Of course, if everyone ignores local lockdown, or local political leaders undermine it, then it's no good.

Even people with plenty of money will become increasingly restless with lockdowns, I reckon.
 
I'd have loved to be in that zoom meeting when the government civil servant says 'Right lads you're going into tier 3'

Response from the council leaders 'Are we f***, go back to the fat Sacrecrow and tell him to F*** off'

Reminds me of the Kevin Bridges routine about the financial crisis in the Eurozone and Greece taking a call from Angela Merkel :D
 
Let’s be honest the whole thing is an absolute fiasco and we still don’t have a coherent solution that negates the spread, reduces the economic impact to a minimum and stops those that flout the guidelines from doing so, the country has been further divided by the situation and ‘sensible’ views outshouted by those from the extremes.

When you have those in charge exploiting loop holes without punishment you can’t expect the population at large to obey them, everyone has their own exceptions and are making their own rules to suit and applying their own interpretation to the restrictions in place.

The rules are neither one thing or an other, the caveats to broad to be effective and those who have not previously followed the guidelines will continue to do so whilst those that have will continue to be punished.

All people have levels of culpability but the buck has to stop with the government, if you introduce something that is ignored and those that ignore it are not being punished then you have failed in a basic premise of maintaining order, the current system is having a speeding driver and instead of punishing him reducing the speed limit of the road, the speeding driver will continue to speed so it doesn’t remove the problem just puts the emphasis on those that obey the limits.
 
Anton_Berg said:
Local authorities, businesses, charities only come up with one idea: send more money. Nobody really knows what to do. The opposition should either support the government or present an actual plan which they are all prepared to commit to (PLP, mayors, TU the lot).
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The opposition has presented an actual plan. Maybe you aren't interested in hearing it though?

Starmer's plan is to go with the advice from SAGE and immediately have a 2-4 week circuit break national lockdown with a financial package sufficient to support people and businesses.

Johnson's plan is to ignore SAGE and have a 3 Tiered system that SAGE doubts will work and not offer a decent financial package. We have been under VERY SIMILAR local lockdowns for 10 weeks now and 19 of the 20 affected areas have seen infection rates rise... So what is the point of Tier 1 & 2 when we have 10 weeks of evidence showing it doesn't work?

"The definition of insanity is repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting different results."
 
The 'Cummings Effect' still is getting talked about in the news too - it's crazy how that man may be directly responsible for the public flouting lockdown rules. Him and Johnson.
 
I’m with this guy...

An ICU doctor in Manchester has told Sky News local leaders need to "shut up" and "shut down, now" the city as hospitals fill up and "people are dying".

Now is not the time to be showboating - these mayors need to get in line now And argue about the money later!
 
bear66 said:
Who's blaming anyone? Diseases spread. Fact.
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Wait.
Did I hear you right?
So what's the point in lockdowns then? In fact, if you look at the 10 places where local lockdowns have been in place for the longest cases have continued to rise.

Viruses spread, you said it.
 
KingOfTheTribes said:
The 'Cummings Effect' still is getting talked about in the news too - it's crazy how that man may be directly responsible for the public flouting lockdown rules. Him and Johnson.
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Not so crazy. I said at the time when he shook off calls from him to withdraw from office that his continued presence would be a massive weight around the governments attempts to garner national collective effort and cooperation.
 
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