Not King George, but today is 80 years since the event that did more to shape our world than any other.
And hardly a mention in the UK. It's not insularity, it's just ignorance.
America and Gun Control
- Thread starter DrummerMan
- Start date
Not King George, but today is 80 years since the event that did more to shape our world than any other.
And hardly a mention in the UK. It's not insularity, it's just ignorance.
The_Lizards_Jumpers
Well-known member
Some Americans however do know how to capitalise, and use grammar correctly, so they've already got one up on you.
Muttley
Well-known member
What? Pearl Harbour? I don't think so. But in any case how does an air attack by a foreign power justify private ownership of assault rifles and such?
It doesn't justify people carrying guns but it does reinforce the principle enshrined in the constitution that you defend your property and country, using force of arms if necessary.
Pearl Harbor shaped the world because it turned a Euro/Asian war into a world war, pitching the USA into the war with Germany and the Axis. With no American involvement then western Europe would probably have been behind the Iron Curtain.
“Being saturated and satiated with emotion and sensation, I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful". Winston Churcill, Dec 7 1941.
It seems very ironic to call all Americans thick in a post that's barely legible.
Muttley
Well-known member
The C20th world was more shaped by (off the top of my head)
The Assassination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand
Russian Revolution
Rise of Fascism in Europe / Great depression of 1930s
Japanese aggression in China
German invasion of Poland and USSR
Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Cuban Missile Crisis
Failure of US in Vietnam
All more significant than Pearl Harbour, which was an important turning point in ONE of the major conflicts of the C20th. What was it you said...
The Assassination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand
Russian Revolution
Rise of Fascism in Europe / Great depression of 1930s
Japanese aggression in China
German invasion of Poland and USSR
Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Cuban Missile Crisis
Failure of US in Vietnam
All more significant than Pearl Harbour, which was an important turning point in ONE of the major conflicts of the C20th. What was it you said...
And I fail to see any link between foreign aggression and personal ownership of military hardware. I think it is more to do with the lies we tell ourselves. Us Brits see ourselves as "exceptional" in that we are "fair and trustworthy" and just downright better than Johnny Foreigner, the lie of "Merican Exceptionalism" is founded in the lie of the "the Frontier Spirit" and Wild West movies, we all have these stories that we cling to, some more dangerous than others.
Squarewheelbike
Well-known member
When my Dad retired in the 90's him and my Mam did a worldy. They went to Pearl Harbour and did the official tour of the site. The official guide went through the history of what happened stating it marked the start of WWII! What was that about insularity?
Great contribution palreally,wow,who,d have thought that
Laughing
Well-known member
Americas right to bear arms is directly linked to the war of independence. The 2nd amendment, most historians believe, was to prepare the USA for occupation. Their version of dad's army.
You are probably right that the attack on Pearl Harbour isn't as significant as other events of the 20th century. The primary one being landing on the moon which essentially ended the cold War.
Come on, get real.
The assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand was just A spark that started WWI. If it wasn't that assassination, it would have started anyway over something else. There were so many entrenched alliances with so many vested interests, it was always going to happen.
Barbarossa - yes, crucial in the scheme of things, but ultimately unsuccessful at least in part because of the entry into the war of the USA (as opposed to the Americans just supplying stuff to help fight the Axis)
The Atomic bombing ended WWII, that (as far as the Pacific war was concerned) started at Pearl Harbor
You could argue that the Russian Revolution, the rise of fascism and the 1930s depression (and their after effects) were all ended by the USA's involvement in the WWII. Don't lose sight of the fact that until Dec 7 1941, the American public did not want to be involved in WWII. From Dec 8 1941, they did. Were it not for the US, and their involvement at D Day and their nuclear capability , then it's pretty likely that the Soviet Union would have occupied most of Europe after May 1945.
Having started WWII in the Pacific, it's strange that Japan only held the upper hand for about 7 months after Pearl Harbor. It was American muscle and technology (of all kinds) that inflicted the catastrophic defeat of the Japanese at Midway, and turned the tide of the war in the Pacific. The victory at Midway allowed the US then to wage war on two fronts, so the pressure on Britain was relieved.
Read Winston Churchill's memoirs to find out how important Pearl Harbor was.
Muttley
Well-known member
One man's view. A learned opinion, but still very blinkered and, well, insular. I'm sorry but you said that "Pearl Harbour shaped our world more than any other" [event]
The ones I listed are more important that Pearl Harbour, the outbreak of WW1 precipitated every single other event I mentioned and many historians view WW2 as simply the logical consequence or a continuation of WW1. Yes the assassination of ADFF sparked a perhaps inevitable war but then to follow your argument PH sparked US involvement in the fighting in WW2. If PH does not happen the war in the Pacific might well have solely involved Japan and China, leaving GB to concentrate on Germany. British industrial output exceeded German output for the whole of WW2 so even without US aid (which had started pre PH and would doubtless have continued) it is unlikely that the Germans could have defeated the USSR and the UK.
The collapse of the Soviet Union was more to do with Chernobyl and economics than a failure to reach the moon. You could argue that only recently have Soviet/Russian achievements in space been eclipsed.
Laughing
Well-known member
You are right about the collapse of the USSR, but the cold war had moved to guerilla warfare in asia and the US wining the space race changed many countries allegiances, siding with the technologically advanced americans. Historians don't all agree that the moon landing ended the cold war, most would agree it had a lot to do with it.
If you recall, the rocket that the russians used to launch sputnik, the R7, was a re-purposed ICBM and it put the fear of god into US intelligence services.
buffaloboro
Well-known member
Annoying , but for them that is the when it did start.
Churchill's view was entirely from the viewpoint of being UK Prime Minister. He overstated the role of the UK in almost every action involving the UK. If he thought the UK was saved because of the attack on Pearl Harbor it's likely it was even more important than he admitted.
Yes WWII in Europe was the result of WWI but therefore ending it - with an Allied victory - was crucial. If the US hadn't been forced into WWII by the Pearl Harbor attack then it would have taken a lot longer to defeat the Axis.
You can't separate the Pearl Harbor attack from the British fighting against Japan because the Japanese attacked British Malaya on Dec 7/8 1941. That was the day it changed to a World War, not just Eurasia.
British WWII output did not exceed German output until late 1944 or 1945. Check your numbers.
Without American involvement in the European war in 1942, 1943 and of course 1944/5, the war would have gone on much longer. The Soviet Union would probably have won (with British and US materiel to help), but it wouldn't have ended in Berlin, most of western Europe would have been overrun.
Soviet space achievements only recently eclipsed? Really? I would have thought the Space Station would have been evidence that the Russian space program is more effective more recently.
BaronSmoggie
Well-known member
This was posted on Reddit in the History subreddit and its a brilliant bit of text that shows US involvement in both World Wars. Its very informative.
WARNING - WORDY POST
Let's start with World War 1 It started in July 1914. The US sat on the sidelines until April 1917 which coincidentally was the same time the Battle of Arras started, sans the US. The Battle of Arras resulted in the Germans losing the high ground to the Cdn Army consisting of 4 divisions. The loss of the high ground to the Canadians eventually led to the surrender of Germany. Not an American to be seen for 250 miles in any direction.
The US entered the 1st War expressly because 5 merchant ships had been sunk after Germany had announced unrestricted warfare against shipping headed to the UK. Compounding the sinkings was an intercepted telegram from Germany's Foreign Minister Zimmerman to the Government of Mexico suggesting they invade the southern States, (something Mexico didn't even consider.)
France lost 1.4 million troops, the UK (including the Commonwealth) lost 1.2 million. The US lost 56,000 in battle and 67,000 to influenza while in camps in the US (think of it as Government neglect) which is fewer troops than Romania lost.
Basically, they did nothing but show up for a participation medal
The 2nd War started in September of 1939. After German aggression towards Great Britain was blunted by Germany losing the Battle of Britain, Germany opened the 2nd front against Russia in June 1941. America did not participate until Dec 8th, 1941 and that was the result of Japan bombing Pearl Harbor. Interestingly enough, Great Britain, Australia, and Canada all declared war against Japan before the US. In actual fact, America didn't enter into the European War until Germany declared war on the USA. The war in Europe was won directly because on the Eastern Front Russia destroyed 17 entire German Divisions along with decimating 6 Armoured Divisions at Kursk. There was NO opportunity for Germany to move large numbers of troops or armour to France to stop the Normandy advances. Supporting this, the RAF flew literally thousands of sorties destroying bases, rail lines, parked armour and troop trains bringing military movement in Germany to almost a complete halt. The 8th Air Force did squat.
Yes, America did contribute through lend-lease as did Canada, Australia and New Zealand. The largest difference was there was always a price tag on any US generosity while others gave freely. Great Britain made its final repayment in 2006. American, British aid was paramount in enabling Russia to slowly turn the tide in the war. Part and parcel of the lend lease agreement was the transfer of technology worth literally billions to the US. Russia also supplied desperately needed rare minerals and gold, silver and platinum in huge quantities. But Lend Lease was not done alone by America and the battles were not sacrifices of American blood. If you think America rescued those trapped in the camps. Think again, the Russians liberated Janowska, Treblenkia, Wilno, Bronna Gora, Chelmo, Stanislawow, Luck, Polunka, Lwowo, Lodz, Trawniki, Sobibor, Auschwitz, Stutthof, Gross-Rosen, Majdanek, Sachsenhausen, & Ravensbrück, The American liberated Buchenwald, Mittelbau, Flossenbürg, and Dachau. Canada liberated Westerbork and the UK Bergen Belsen & Neuengamme.
The Normandy landing involved troops from 8 countries, Great Britain, France, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Australia, Norway, Poland and the US. There were 5 beaches, 2 under US control, 3 under GB control. The best results were shown by the Canadians who advanced beyond where they were expected to be on the 3rd day. The worst being the USA - Utah Beach where objectives were not even near accomplished. In addition, the US actually managed to get lost and land on the wrong beach. Compounding their problems was the fact they dropped their support tanks off 2 miles from shore and the majority sank before reaching shore. The US faced 8 understaffed, under-supplied divisions consisting of foreigners, the very young and old along with soldiers either previously retired or recovering from old wounds. They were poorly equipped and were estimated to be between 8,000-12,000 along the entire beachfront including the British beaches. The difference was the British were opposed by a newly outfitted 21st Panzer Group.
Probably the biggest battle that America had in Europe in which they claimed a victory was the Battle of The Bulge. That battle was in essence a victory by Germany although a strategic loss because of the unnecessary gamble taken by Hitler. Had the Germans not run out of fuel and supplies the story would have been much different and if Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, who had taken charge of the situation on the northern flank, had not swung his reserves southward to forestall the Germans at the crossings of the Meuse a complete retreat would have occurred.
The Italian landings and battles consisted mainly of efforts by Britain, Canada and the US with assistance from France, New Zealand, Algeria, India, Morocco, Poland. In both Sicily and Italy, the UK and Canada did the lion's amount of works whilst the US managed to get itself both the easier assignments and in the case of Italy needed huge help from Canada to not completely fail in the beginning. Again, in war courage is measured by sacrifice and the USA was at the bottom of the list. Unsurprisingly, the best performances by the US were the Combined Special Forces, the Black regiment and the Japanese regiment
Overall France suffered 210,000 troop deaths, the British Commonwealth 563,000, Russia 11,470,000 and the US 407,000. Civilian deaths which were the direct result of military action were France, 407,000, Great Britain, Australia, Canada & India 156,600, Russia 16,000,000 and the US 12,100.
If the US wants to take credit for the Pacific War instead; good luck. The following participated in that "American Victory", China, the United Kingdom (including the Fiji Islands, the Straits Settlements and other colonial forces), Tonga (a British protectorate), Australia (including the Territory of New Guinea), the Commonwealth of the Philippines (a United States protectorate), British India, the Netherlands (including Dutch East Indies colonial forces), the Soviet Union, New Zealand, Canada, Mexico, and Mongolia. Free French Naval Forces contributed several warships, such as the Le Triomphant. After the Liberation of France, the French battleship Richelieu was sent to the Pacific. From 1943, the commando group Corps Léger d'Intervention took part in resistance operations in Indochina. French Indochinese forces faced Japanese forces in a coup in 1945. The commando corps continued to operate after the coup until liberation.
Then there is the vaunted Midway battle won by luck as opposed to military strategy or strength. Had the Japanese discovered the US fleet and hour earlier or before the Americans did likewise, history would be completely changed. It was the inability of Japan to replace the carriers that eventually led to their downfall.
Some mention should be made of the Battle for Burma where Australian, New Zealand, the UK, Canadian, India, South African troops numbering close to 1,000,000 and a very small contingent of Americans blunted Japan’s attempt to push through to Malaysia and India to grab rubber and oil. This battle ran from 1942 through to 1945 in the most brutal conditions and kept almost 500,000 Japanese troops trapped in jungle warfare Vs being able to help defend small islands.
As for the Mediterranean, there were 4 major battles throughout the war and not one of them involved US warships. Great Britain, Australia and the RAF were credited with sinking 100 warships, 158 submarines and over 2,000,000 tons of shipping. Not one vessel was claimed by the US.
In the Battle of the Atlantic, the US shared roles with the UK, France, Norway, Poland, Belgium, Canada, Brazil and the Netherlands. During most of the war, the strategy and organization was British driven. It was NOT American operation led nor did they champion it. One just has to look at the number of RAF/RCAF aircraft lost Vs US losses to realize who shouldered the load (RAF – 745 lost – USA – 0 lost.) Again, if you looked at lost naval vessels, the British lost 164 ships out of the 175 lost during the battle. The Germans fared much worst in the end, losing 743 submarines. Canadian Coastal Command alone was responsible for the sinking of 200 U-boats at the cost of over 750 airmen.
Guerrilla organizations that fought for the Allies include the Chinese Eighth Route Army and New Fourth Army, the Hukbalahap, the Malayan Peoples' Anti-Japanese Army, the Manchurian Anti-Japanese Volunteer Armies, the Korean Liberation Army, the Free Thai Movement.
Although the US lost 161,000 troops, it is nowhere near the losses China experienced 1,904,000 dead. The Commonwealth losses amounted to 120,000, the Philippines 27,000, Russia 68,700 and the Dutch lost an entire army. These are troops, not the civilian casualties which in the case of China, India, the Philippines, Manchuria are in the millions (12,600,000.)
So, as you can now plainly see, the USA is again taking credit for other people’s valor.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
High Chapperal has a lot to answer for - the family at the centre were surrounded by hostile Apaches or Mexicans - their home was also a fort at short notice - their defence depended almost entirely on their own efforts - strangers were threats - some parts of America seem locked on this mentality.
chickenrunner
Well-known member
Not necessarily in Europe. It's widely acknowledged that Roosevelt still faced a difficult task to bring the US into the war against Germany. Fortunately Hitler declared war on the US thus relieving FDR (and Churchill) of his difficulties.
I'd suggest the Dunkirk evacuation was the vital moment in the war in Europe. Had we surrendered there would have been no European war for America to enter. Measures, short of war, to help Britain (lend lease and the like) only passed through Congress by very narrow margins so I can't see the US supporting the USSR without our ongoing involvement given their paranoia over all things communist. Hitler would not have had to fight a 2 front war and might well have defeated the USSR.
Laughing
Well-known member
I loved that show. Don't go ruining it for me.