A dispassionate assessment

Glover_elbow said:
I dont think thats objective at all but rose tinted we played into their hands today carrick was done tactically by le bris. They sat off and purposely didnt press they wanted us to dominate possession and play on the counter.
Thats two games in a row carrick has been out thought by opposition managers. He has to set up differently tactically or personnel wise agiasnt stoke.
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Carrick may be making a few mistakes but I think this is very harsh to say he was out thought today (yesterday now).

We were away at a decent team, playing ok, should have been ahead and it was looking reasonably good. Then we conceded an unfortunate goal.

After that they sat back. Of course they did, they were 1-0 up. Probably would have been a different story if we’d scored first or they hadn’t scored their goal.

Are we supposed to deliberately give away possession and sit back ourselves at 1-0 down? Just because we don’t want teams to counter attack us?

We are woeful when we go behind and teams then sit back, but we can’t exactly stop them doing it, except by not going behind in the first place.
 
MidlandsBoroFan said:
Carrick may be making a few mistakes but I think this is very harsh to say he was out thought today (yesterday now).

We were away at a decent team, playing ok, should have been ahead and it was looking reasonably good. Then we conceded an unfortunate goal.

After that they sat back. Of course they did, they were 1-0 up. Probably would have been a different story if we’d scored first or they hadn’t scored their goal.

Are we supposed to deliberately give away possession and sit back ourselves at 1-0 down? Just because we don’t want teams to counter attack us?

We are woeful when we go behind and teams then sit back, but we can’t exactly stop them doing it, except by not going behind in the first place.
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If you analysed all the goals conceded this season the common factor is them originating on the left so it wasnt unfortunate it was inevitable they would score from that frailty.
 
Glover_elbow said:
If you analysed all the goals conceded this season the common factor is them originating on the left so it wasnt unfortunate it was inevitable they would score from that frailty.
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Not disagreeing with that at all. As I said, he’s made mistakes. Our left side is definitely a weakness.

My point was about people saying he was out thought and criticising him for Sunderland sitting back and not pressing us. He can’t exactly control that, especially at 1-0 down.
 
I wouldn't say it came from the left today, it was initial misplaced layoff under pressure by Ayling that let them in. Anything after that was the team desperately trying to get back control of the situation as Sunderland moved it towards our goal.
I wouldn't be surprised if Manu is injured the next match, that knock will come up in the next few days and will be tender for awhile, if he is injured then we can play Conway central with Doak coming in
I'm not going to write of Borges he is new, so he needs time. Which if people want to pull me upon don't bother I was one of the few posters who didn't want to change anything much at the end of last season,, but as we have then we have to expect a period of familirasation and adjustment within the team, which unfortunately looks like the results and performances we have seen. The only time I will say Carrick has drastically got it wrong this season is in the Cup.
 
I feel like the super patient slow build up play is dependent on a number 10 who can create a bit of magic and unlock a defence, which we don’t have.

We didn’t have a shot on target yesterday, and most of the crosses were just hopeful drives across the box. Playing slow possession football nullifies the pace we have upfront but we haven’t got the magic to create anything against teams defending so deep, so we get a bit of neither.

Fair bit of that is down to Azaz, who isn’t that good. For me he has to work a hell of a lot harder as a starting point. We look garbage down the left, and someone in the match thread posted that Borges is being hung out to dry, which is true - Azaz doesn’t work that hard to support his full back either way. Hamilton at least got back after he came on and didn’t leave Borges one on one.

And it’s not like he’s even that creative in possession. He’s not like a Lee Tomlin, who didn’t defend but wasn’t capable of having a sensible touch of the ball, every touch was either an outrageous through ball or a trick, proper X factor. At best Azaz is a pretty passer but barely impacts games, drifts around and is lightweight, doesn’t create and isn’t that brave on the ball.

It seems to be our “tactic” to overload the right and leave the left to fend for itself, but we need to sort that out asap - and I think it starts with Azaz getting some time on the bench. We have to mix it up and play a bit more direct as well, Lath is rapid so use it.
 
Glover_elbow said:
If you analysed all the goals conceded this season the common factor is them originating on the left so it wasnt unfortunate it was inevitable they would score from that frailty.
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That’s not true Glover. Derby's goal and Portsmouth's second had nothing to do
with our left side, so before yesterday we had conceded 2 goals in 5 games that originated on our left. Hardly fits the description of inevitable.
 
Slow and ponderous seems to fit.

Fine margins in all the games, but if we want to go up fine margins isn't enough. We aren't scoring goals.

Can be critical of the defence but we aren't losing many goals. We aren't quite karanka tight but most goals we have conceded have been errors.

Don't score goals, don't win games.

Plenty of time for it to come together.
 
jonny_greenings_sock said:
I feel like the super patient slow build up play is dependent on a number 10 who can create a bit of magic and unlock a defence, which we don’t have.

We didn’t have a shot on target yesterday, and most of the crosses were just hopeful drives across the box. Playing slow possession football nullifies the pace we have upfront but we haven’t got the magic to create anything against teams defending so deep, so we get a bit of neither.

Fair bit of that is down to Azaz, who isn’t that good. For me he has to work a hell of a lot harder as a starting point. We look garbage down the left, and someone in the match thread posted that Borges is being hung out to dry, which is true - Azaz doesn’t work that hard to support his full back either way. Hamilton at least got back after he came on and didn’t leave Borges one on one.

And it’s not like he’s even that creative in possession. He’s not like a Lee Tomlin, who didn’t defend but wasn’t capable of having a sensible touch of the ball, every touch was either an outrageous through ball or a trick, proper X factor. At best Azaz is a pretty passer but barely impacts games, drifts around and is lightweight, doesn’t create and isn’t that brave on the ball.

It seems to be our “tactic” to overload the right and leave the left to fend for itself, but we need to sort that out asap - and I think it starts with Azaz getting some time on the bench. We have to mix it up and play a bit more direct as well, Lath is rapid so use it.
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Agree with this. Teams will defend deeper to limit the space in behind to neutralise Lath's pace. Crossing isn't working as we are not set up to get on the end of crosses in the middle.

Maybe a false 9 could work? Disrupt opposition defences by pulling them forwards and rely on runners from deep and wide exploiting the space?
 
I thought the first half was good. We should have scored at least 2 and they were glaring misses. Conway got on the end of a great cross as did Clarke. Creating chances wasn’t an issue at all.

Second half was awful I am afraid but I have yet to reach the Glover’s Elbow depths of despair just yet.
 
BoroMart said:
It isn’t really though, we’ve won 2 drawn 2 lost 2.

It might feel like this every week but it isn’t
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We've dropped 10 points though against sides that were in the bottom half last season or were in L1 not the results a promotion side should be having it is happening every week. Was same in the draws to Preston and Pompey.
 
If Carrick was being out thought Tactically we would be getting beat and creating nothing.

The fact that we create plenty of chances suggests that not only is Carrick Tactically correct in how we are set up but he is right to stick with it.

Not sure any manager can legislate for strikers missing chances. Carrick will see a bigger picture. If we keep creating chances our fortunes will turn around. And he is right.

Let's assume, for a minute, that the tactics are too blame and he changes how we play. And we create 15% more chances. Will we score them? I don't know and neither does anybody else. If you have to create 3 times the chances of the opposition to win then tactics are not the problem.

The one area where he should change things is disciplne when we are out of possession. We do defend poorly down the left.
 
Possession and control aren't really enough if we've not got the ball in positions where we can hurt the opposition. There's three ways to do this.

1) Movement - players running into those dangerous positions and passes being played into those spaces

2) Dribbling - taking a man on to get into those spaces

3) Quick Passing - if (1) and (2) aren't happening then moving the ball at speed will still work.

I've seen us doing all three of those during Carrick's time in charge. We were doing it as recently as the Cardiff game, but right now - and especially when we're chasing a goal - none of those things are happening.

Oughtn't to be the hardest thing to address, but needs to happen soon or this season will be another write off.
 
Craggsy2 said:
Weren’t we top of the XG stats this time last season too but bottom of the table. XG is a meaningless statistic.
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I am not a fan of it, it's not meaningless though. People who choose to ignore it are doing so because it doesn't sit well with their opinion.

Oh and I don't think we were any where near being top of the XG table after 6 games last season,though happy to be corrected if someone wants to check.
 
Juno10 said:
A quick scan of the board shows how passions have been inflamed after todays game. A mixture of anger and frustration in almost every post. I was gutted afterwards too.

However... as the smoke clears, I think it is time to assess the game objectively.

First half was a good away performance overall. Listening to their manager, he was concerned how easily we overloaded them on the right. Isaiah got in behind them 3 or 4 tines but wasted great positions. We dominated the ball and pushed them back. They didn't want that to happen, we just had control. Yes, they counter attacked us a few times through Roberts and Mundle but it was sporadic. If Conway and ELL score there chances, absolutely no one thinks that we don't deserve to be ahead at half time.

The second half was very disappointing. After Morris blazed wide from a very promising move, we just ran out of ideas. No doubt that the tempo of passing was slow and ponderous, but how much was that due to how deep Sunderland defended? Unfortunately we veered from being too passive to trying to play 'Hollywood' passes. What we didn't have was someone who was prepared to take their opponent on and open it up (Doak excepted). I can't remember any of our starting 4 forwards or Hackney taking on a player and beating them. It was crying out for someone in a central area to be brave and direct - it just wasn't there. I felt that Burgzorg should have replaced ELL 20 minutes earlier, as he has the ability and physique to manipulate the ball in tight areas 1v1. But it wasn't to be.

Moments change games. First half we did well, second half we were poor. I genuinely don't think we are far away and I believe we are good enough to beat any side in this league - hone or away. Lots to be excited about with this team!

UTB
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Good post, I've read 101 reasons to be downbeat after yesterday's game, but football is always fine margins and despite picking up more points this season, there are very clear similarities between the start to this season and last

We seem to be a streaky team under Carrick and haven't found consistency of any kind yet.

We're just not quite clicking yet, but history tells us that we will under Carrick and I'm sure we will again.

Sunderland did what most teams have done against us and that's to play a low block and try and counter attack. That block became deeper as the game went on, with less and less ambition to attack and we didn't have the guile to play through them.

I said before the season started that I thought Sunderland would be strong this season, but I still think we'll finish above them come May
 
I have a very simplistic view of all of this.

If you insist on playing like Man City, old Man Utd etc, where every pass, starting from the keeper, is measured, what happens when you have players with a fraction of the talent that Man City have?
The sky commentator kept pointing out that the mackems were marking man-for-man when dieng had the ball. He was left with no option than to go long. We had no system for this so we end up conceding possession. again.

We had a glorious 9 months with Chuba - his link up play was incredible, along with the in form Giles and Jones bombing down each wing. We lost those two(arguably 3) players and we havent been the same since.

ever since I was a kid, at our level, there has always been a place for getting the ball forward quickly and getting some shoe on the ball, from the wings, and launching it in to the box. Nowt wrong with that. Get players running into the box to attack the ball and any knock downs.

Man City have a squad full of £60m players who can play the tippy tappy stuff and it is a joy to watch. I do not think we have the quality to do this.
 
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