306 to 232 all votes now counted - Biden's margin of victory 74
- Thread starter Redwurzel
- Start date
WeeGord
Well-known member
I’d read he is now going to concede after a rally today at which he will state he is standing in 2024.
I wonder if this hasn’t all been a charade to distract while he’s been trying to make a deal with the Democrats in the background to try and ensure there aren’t legal proceedings against him when he leaves office.
I wonder if this hasn’t all been a charade to distract while he’s been trying to make a deal with the Democrats in the background to try and ensure there aren’t legal proceedings against him when he leaves office.
dooderooni
Well-known member
If you look at FatCat's "Trump" thread you'll see what he has the option of trying.
Trump has ignored all the normal mechanisms of government so his refusal to concede has a purpose. If the Republicans in Congress are so afraid of his base then they could well decide to ignore the results and electoral college votes and simply vote him in against the popular vote regardless. Some of them, the likes of Jordan, Gaetz and Nunes for example, are so loyal to the orange ****** that they'd happily do it.
Trump has ignored all the normal mechanisms of government so his refusal to concede has a purpose. If the Republicans in Congress are so afraid of his base then they could well decide to ignore the results and electoral college votes and simply vote him in against the popular vote regardless. Some of them, the likes of Jordan, Gaetz and Nunes for example, are so loyal to the orange ****** that they'd happily do it.
Abel Tasman
Well-known member
Unless the Republican Party want mass countrywide civil unrest and world wide condemnation then that won’t be allowed to happen.
dooderooni
Well-known member
You'd think not Abel, but the GOP are a craven bunch of spineless, power-hungry tosspots and I'd put nothing past them. I'd agree about the unrest, but then I'd have expected the GOP to have been publicly putting pressure on d*ck Tater to concede by now. I've posted the link to all of them saying Hilary should just accept the vote in 2016 and there's footage of all the Fox presenters doing the same, in direct opposition to what they are all now saying so there is no normal with them.
Nah, faithless electors hardly ever vote for the other major candidate. They might vote for Jo Jorgenson but they won't vote for Donald Trump.
Frozen Horse
Well-known member
I think Trump hinted at a new administration for the first time in his speech yesterday.
I see the popular vote is also pushing up towards 5.5 million in Biden's favour, or a 3.5% lead if you'd rather.
I see the popular vote is also pushing up towards 5.5 million in Biden's favour, or a 3.5% lead if you'd rather.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
It concerns me how so many Americans can believe all this stuff about millions of voter frauds. I know a lot of them supported the McCarthy Witch Trials of the 1950s, but they don't seem to have learned anything since then and have gone backwards even from that point.
I guess when a country is hallowed out economically it has a political impact. What I mean is the typical American family of the 1970s no longer has the lifestyle of the Brady Bunch Family they get angry and vote Trump. They may see people in China driving better BMW cars, going on European holidays and thinking we used to have that and now we don't. Earning $10 per hour and not been able to even have reasonable medical care, because they have to pay for it.
I guess when a country is hallowed out economically it has a political impact. What I mean is the typical American family of the 1970s no longer has the lifestyle of the Brady Bunch Family they get angry and vote Trump. They may see people in China driving better BMW cars, going on European holidays and thinking we used to have that and now we don't. Earning $10 per hour and not been able to even have reasonable medical care, because they have to pay for it.
There's a lot of things to unpack there. I don't think many people today think that McCarthyism is, or was right. To have been conscious of what was going on in those days, you'd be at least 85 now, so not so many people who even remember it.
The median household income level in the US is really high, certainly compared to most European countries. Taxes are very low. The US government pays for a lot of healthcare for poor or disadvantaged people. The big issue - always - is how many people are on the cart, versus the number pulling the cart. There's much less empathy for people who are poor, and certainly the feckless - than in most European countries. Most Americans can trace their ancestry to being refugees from extreme political regimes around the world so there is very little appetite for what people here think of as socialism. But the fact remains, that if you are prepared to work at it, and you have any intelligence at all, then you can make a great living in the US.
Ingleby_Flash
Well-known member
Trump had a similar margin over Clinton in 2016. He referred to it as a landslide.
NYboro
Well-known member
That is utter nonsense. The median income is only high because of the obscenely wealthy at the top end. The Government does NOT pay for health care for poor and disadvantaged - Medicaid covers very little and many have no health coverage at all. The hospital where I work is across the street from one of the many NYCHA projects and the majority of them use our ER as their primary health care provider. They never have to pay because hospitals are legally obliged to treat them. One of the factors, even if only minor, in our decision to return to the UK on retirement is that basic Medicare costs $140 per month per person and then you have to buy addons.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Thanks for generally backing me up NYboro
I read over 30% of Americans don't have medical cover and its increasing as a number of jobs now don't include medical insurance for the employee and their family which was very standard in the past.
The MEAN income is high in the USA, but as you say there are a lot of people who earn modest amounts with a small percentage of big earners who boost the MEAN. The better earners are also the ones that tend to be more visible.
On Bloomberg TV (US Business TV Channel) they tend to call Americans who earn $50,000 dollars a year middle class that about £38,000 a year which is what we would also say in the UK is middle class. In past Amercians were considered much better off than people in the UK now it is getting closer. The median (middle income) household income in the USA is around £50,000 but this includes everyone's income in a household which could be often 2 working adults. My guess is that the average American is aware they are not a wealthy as they were as individuals certainly in relative terms to other countries and it can breed resentment as seen in some of the support for Trump and his policies (new higher tariffs on imports into the USA, not paying for NATO etc). Trump seems to be popular in the poorer states such as the mid west states and some of the southern states which is a bit strange for a very right wing politician. Maybe its like the Red wall Tories in the UK?
Socialism is a dirty word in the USA - it was seen as foreign, against religion, undemocratic and later linked to communism and generally un-American. I have to laugh when Republicans call the Democrats left wing and socialist. The Biden Democrats to me are what we call Tory wets or one Nation Tories.
I read over 30% of Americans don't have medical cover and its increasing as a number of jobs now don't include medical insurance for the employee and their family which was very standard in the past.
The MEAN income is high in the USA, but as you say there are a lot of people who earn modest amounts with a small percentage of big earners who boost the MEAN. The better earners are also the ones that tend to be more visible.
On Bloomberg TV (US Business TV Channel) they tend to call Americans who earn $50,000 dollars a year middle class that about £38,000 a year which is what we would also say in the UK is middle class. In past Amercians were considered much better off than people in the UK now it is getting closer. The median (middle income) household income in the USA is around £50,000 but this includes everyone's income in a household which could be often 2 working adults. My guess is that the average American is aware they are not a wealthy as they were as individuals certainly in relative terms to other countries and it can breed resentment as seen in some of the support for Trump and his policies (new higher tariffs on imports into the USA, not paying for NATO etc). Trump seems to be popular in the poorer states such as the mid west states and some of the southern states which is a bit strange for a very right wing politician. Maybe its like the Red wall Tories in the UK?
Socialism is a dirty word in the USA - it was seen as foreign, against religion, undemocratic and later linked to communism and generally un-American. I have to laugh when Republicans call the Democrats left wing and socialist. The Biden Democrats to me are what we call Tory wets or one Nation Tories.
NYboro
Well-known member
I don't even look at what I pay for my healthcare - I have a great policy because I work for a "Health System", but there is a split between their share of the costs and mine, On top of that, I am taxed on their share. We can never work out why the red states keep voting for Trump. One thing that keeps coming up (still) is those who want to do away with Obamacare, little realising that the Affordable Health Care act that they have IS Obamacare. I can also never understand how they equate Socialism with Communism and Trump, of course, pushes that as much as he can.
Rofesleg
Well-known member
Doesn't using the MEDIAN average take into account anomalies caused by the upper or lower extremes?
NYboro
Well-known member
They are not anomalies here - there are a lot of ultra rich and many many more in poverty. What I can never understand is why so many of those in abject poverty would vote Republican.
I said median household income. Using the median removes the skew of people at the top of the income spread.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-270.html
So the US median household income is over $68k. For comparison, the same figure in the UK is $39k.
From the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget -
"Of that $3.5 trillion (total healthcare spending) $1.5 trillion is directly or indirectly financed by the federal government. In other words, the federal government dedicates resources of nearly 8 percent of the economy toward health care. By 2028, we estimate these costs will rise to $2.9 trillion, or 9.7 percent of the economy. Over time, these costs will continue to grow and consume an increasing share of federal resources."
Let's not facts get in the way of your agenda. And yes, I worked in the US (NY and CA) for 30 years, so I have some experience here.
MFP
Well-known member
On the contrary. Looking at the margins in Arizona, Wisconsin and Georgia, and then the 2nd in Nebraska, this could well have been the 270 Trump needed. It was a lot closer than people might think.
NYboro
Well-known member
You have really not addressed anything that I said - fine, take out the severely underprivileged at the bottom and the figures look good. You would think that the fact that they spend more per head on health than anyone else would be a good thing, but it only highlights how completely dysfunctional the health system is and I work in it.I said median household income. Using the median removes the skew of people at the top of the income spread.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-270.html
So the US median household income is over $68k. For comparison, the same figure in the UK is $39k.
From the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget -
"Of that $3.5 trillion (total healthcare spending) $1.5 trillion is directly or indirectly financed by the federal government. In other words, the federal government dedicates resources of nearly 8 percent of the economy toward health care. By 2028, we estimate these costs will rise to $2.9 trillion, or 9.7 percent of the economy. Over time, these costs will continue to grow and consume an increasing share of federal resources."
Let's not facts get in the way of your agenda. And yes, I worked in the US (NY and CA) for 30 years, so I have some experience here.