Londons_Moggie
Well-known member
Not sure I didn’t see it. The loss of low paid jobs to tech and Asia isnt the EUs fault it’s just an inevitable consequence of globalisation and human technological progression.
18k jobs to the area as a direct result of Brexit...
- Thread starter ChrisTheRed
- Start date
Lefty
Well-known member
You think I'm using twisted logic?
There are Freeports in the EU, and we used to have them here but closed them down in 2012.
So before Brexit it wasn't that we were prevented from having them.
That is logical step one. Do you disagree?
If they were such a great thing, why did we shut them down?
Logical step two says either they weren't a great thing or what they achieve could previously be done a different, better, way.
Do you disagree, or have a better explanation for this?
Now, the government says we need them.
Logical step 3 is that either we now cannot achieve what we used to or something has happened that makes this necessary.
The timing of this change is either side of our change of trading status with the EU and the rest of the world.
What is your explanation?
Scrote
Well-known member
At least you acknowledge that Brexit is a failing economic agreement.
Londons_Moggie
Well-known member
Chris_Boro
Well-known member
Are people in this thread still reading 18000 new Jobs headline?
It's been edited down to "hundreds" something that seems to have been wilfully ignored by some on this thread.
It's been edited down to "hundreds" something that seems to have been wilfully ignored by some on this thread.
SmallTown
Well-known member
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Looking at the voting stats for EU referendum from Boro Mart - as he states it was in general older people, less educated, those in blue collar jobs that voted for Leave.
But to me it was more importantly those in the left behind areas of the UK that voted Leave particularly in England and Wales. London voted more to Remain more than anywhere else in the UK, but London also has a young very well educated population, many in white collar professional jobs. Many of the educated young from left behind areas have migrated to London or another large UK City, because that is where the vast majority of the professional jobs are. This has in part unbalanced the UK economy as many employers want locate where large numbers of the young professionals are.
A distorted UK economy is no good for anyone - the prosperous areas suffer shortages of people and services, unaffordable property, congestion and crowding. While the left behind areas suffer from a drain of clever young people, falling property values, lack of investment, social problems from lack of career opportunities. In the last 40 years these distortions have become bigger. Something had to change and the EU was not providing that economic change for many people in the left behind areas. In Scotland this has come out in their own form of Nationalism, so there was less of an angry vote there. The angry vote is often implied as a vote of the uneducated but I disagree to me it was more the vote of the left behind.
But to me it was more importantly those in the left behind areas of the UK that voted Leave particularly in England and Wales. London voted more to Remain more than anywhere else in the UK, but London also has a young very well educated population, many in white collar professional jobs. Many of the educated young from left behind areas have migrated to London or another large UK City, because that is where the vast majority of the professional jobs are. This has in part unbalanced the UK economy as many employers want locate where large numbers of the young professionals are.
A distorted UK economy is no good for anyone - the prosperous areas suffer shortages of people and services, unaffordable property, congestion and crowding. While the left behind areas suffer from a drain of clever young people, falling property values, lack of investment, social problems from lack of career opportunities. In the last 40 years these distortions have become bigger. Something had to change and the EU was not providing that economic change for many people in the left behind areas. In Scotland this has come out in their own form of Nationalism, so there was less of an angry vote there. The angry vote is often implied as a vote of the uneducated but I disagree to me it was more the vote of the left behind.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
There is a lot of truth in this statement, but it is possible to adapt to change and preserve jobs by changing them. Germany has a shipbuilding industry still be, by making cruise ships, while the UK has failed to adapt in general and lost nearly all of its civilian shipbuilding.
Part of this adaption process should be facilitated in some part by differing Governments such as EU and UK. It hasn't happened enough in left behind areas hence the decline in economic activity. Government can give subsidies, grants, provide some trade protection, change tax levels to incentivise etc. One example - The EU spends 40% of its budget on subsidising farming to protect farmers and rural life within the EU. It also ensures farmers are protected with tariffs and quotas on some food stuffs goods entering the EU from outside. The UK is a big contributor to this subsidy, not many on Teesside benefit though. Another example is investment in public infrastructure, CrossRail (in SE England) has being in construction for 12 years and will cost about £19 billion, while Middlesbrough station is from another age and part of it unusable for lack of investment it serves around 200,000 people! Not EU's direct fault but certainly a victim of lack of interest from the UK and EU Governments until recently. That sort of major investment lays the foundation for a successful economy.
Lefty
Well-known member
I think you make some good points, but people who laid the blame at the door of the EU were, quite simply, wrong.
Most Brexit voters were Tories, not the people actually left behind.
You are right thought, for Brexit voters it was about how they felt. It wasn’t about logic and reasoning and facts, it was the opposite of that. Feelings are not unimportant, but they should only come into the equation at the end of the decision making process, not at the beginning or during it.
As for the people of Teesside and funding..
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Lefty - cheers for your comments and interesting stats
A lot of people voted in 2016 who did not vote for any party in the GE of say 2015, especially in Leave areas like Teesside. Some areas voter turnout shot up from around 65% in a GE to 80% for the EU Referendum.
Based on recent elections I must be in a smallish minority in how I voted. I haven't voted Tory since 2010 or ever for UKIP and I do vote at every General Election.
The EU structural funds - its how effective they were, how many jobs on Teesside did they create? was this highlighted by the REMAIN campaign on Teesside in election leaflets etc?
I don't live on Teesside but I have seen the decline in economic activity from a distance and when visiting even saw it in the artwork of artists like Dave Mulholland. The EU funding impact appeared marginal to me, it may have been hidden. I was aware of the Redcar vertical Pier and seafront before the Vote and Rob Nichols has mentioned IT projects over the Border in the Boro. Going on holiday to Ireland in the late 1990s and there were EU project funding boards up everywhere, examples were new roads, new industrial estates, airports and airport extensions. The West of Ireland seem to have 5 airports for a population of 500,000? Property prices were much higher than Teesside!
Furthermore some of the funds will be going to the metropolitan centres and not shown in the graphs. I used to get involved in EU projects before 2016 and its amazing where some of the cash ended up and what on. For example my town in the Welsh marches received funding for all expense meetings in Brusselles. I would prefer more pinpointed benefits such as lower tax rates in economically depressed zones.
EU Agricultural Spending - the graphs need to show spending across the EU per capita to be relevent, opposed to across the UK. The EU is much more rural than the UK, with lower pop densities, so high spending on agricultural projects tend to benefit countries away from the UK in relative terms. Agriculture is a big part of the EU and probably will always be so.
A lot of people voted in 2016 who did not vote for any party in the GE of say 2015, especially in Leave areas like Teesside. Some areas voter turnout shot up from around 65% in a GE to 80% for the EU Referendum.
Based on recent elections I must be in a smallish minority in how I voted. I haven't voted Tory since 2010 or ever for UKIP and I do vote at every General Election.
The EU structural funds - its how effective they were, how many jobs on Teesside did they create? was this highlighted by the REMAIN campaign on Teesside in election leaflets etc?
I don't live on Teesside but I have seen the decline in economic activity from a distance and when visiting even saw it in the artwork of artists like Dave Mulholland. The EU funding impact appeared marginal to me, it may have been hidden. I was aware of the Redcar vertical Pier and seafront before the Vote and Rob Nichols has mentioned IT projects over the Border in the Boro. Going on holiday to Ireland in the late 1990s and there were EU project funding boards up everywhere, examples were new roads, new industrial estates, airports and airport extensions. The West of Ireland seem to have 5 airports for a population of 500,000? Property prices were much higher than Teesside!
Furthermore some of the funds will be going to the metropolitan centres and not shown in the graphs. I used to get involved in EU projects before 2016 and its amazing where some of the cash ended up and what on. For example my town in the Welsh marches received funding for all expense meetings in Brusselles. I would prefer more pinpointed benefits such as lower tax rates in economically depressed zones.
EU Agricultural Spending - the graphs need to show spending across the EU per capita to be relevent, opposed to across the UK. The EU is much more rural than the UK, with lower pop densities, so high spending on agricultural projects tend to benefit countries away from the UK in relative terms. Agriculture is a big part of the EU and probably will always be so.
LaPennaBianca
Well-known member
SmallTown
Well-known member
I was thinking that “new member” hmm? Has the whiff of the COBs about it
Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
They weren't low paid jobs, we've kept them. Well paid manual jobs have gone.
Of the European nations we appear to be amongst the most unwilling to make sure our standard of living is upheld despite the consequences of globalisation. We adopted the dog eat dog approach decades ago, for me Brexit is simply an acknowledgement that the silly philosophy still exists.
The development of democracy was to curtail this stupidity, the cutting back of democracy in the UK means the survival of the fattest continues, to the detriment of the country.
Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
That's the problem with the right, they need a bogeyman living next door to blame their own failings on.
I'm in my 60s too, the country took a turn for the worst when I was in my 20s, poverty was increased in towns where there wasn't an increase in immigrant numbers. Services were slashed and the degradation started. It was the shift to the right that caused it, a shift that hasn't been remedied since.
If you don't think we've been a multicultural state for nigh on 2000 years you can't have realised how many times we've been conquered, how our language and customs have developed etc.
You're quite happy pointing the finger of blame at people because they're a different shade to you, yet in some of the areas of higher depravation you will struggle to find many that are.
LaPennaBianca
Well-known member
I'd appreciate a little more of an explanation of how 'it will implode', some specifics. What will happen, exactly?
BoroMart
Well-known member
they've got a line in the sand now, they will fight tooth and nail that is 18K jobs, because that's the position they have taken. To admit otherwise weakens their pro brexit stance, they'll never back down from this, and free ports, something they had never heard of until last year suddenly becomes the most important thing in the world.
BoroMart
Well-known member
You need to get around london a bit more, it has huge areas left behind, financially depraved. Yes, there is 'some truth' that economically deprived areas such as the north east voted against. But it's also true that the northeast has one of the lowest levels of residents with higher education, and has an older population because anyone with a decent qualifications migrates out to London.
What you are left with is an older than average populous, a less educated than most populous, and a very blue collar focussed region.
The truth is that the north east is left behind partly because there aren't the roles to keep top people around, or migrate them in, just as much as 'it's been left behind' as some kind of construct of government.
What makes the brexit vote more strange is the concept that giving the ERG a Tory economic right wing group what they want is somehow giving the establishment a bloody nose. Brexit was largely a Tory policy, that part of the party loved and part hated, it was something that the Tories needed to get through to unite as a party. It was an existential threat to them, as UKIP started to gather votes which threatened to anihilate their ability to for a government and hand power back to Labour. It's sorted now, those northern towns played their part in re-uniting those elitists.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Well that's clearly one of the ex-COB racists outed. Disgraceful attitude, absolute neanderthal
Jonny Ingbar
Well-known member
Lost. For. Words.