What now in remaining games.

Another game, another set of reasons why we can’t play your own young players.

We can’t play them when we’re trying to go up, or trying to stay up, or trying to make the playoffs, or playing a team trying to go up. We must wait for the final day of the season and then people can say ‘well we won’t really learn anything from a dead rubber anyway so it’s a pointless exercise isn’t it.’

The argument that “if they’re good enough they they’ll play” doesn’t stand up. Hackney was good enough to play under Wilder but he wasn’t given the opportunity. What some of us are saying is - is it really too much to expect to see the best of our youth team given 2 or 3 runouts now our hopes of promotion are gone?

Personally I would be really disappointed if we never used these games to blood some of these kids. I’ve always been quite confident Carrick was committed to developing Boro’s young players but actually I’m not so sure any more. It will be interesting to see if he does it in the next 2-3 weeks instead of persisting with a clutch of senior players who either aren’t good enough or we don’t outright own, or both.
The way to blood younger players is gradually, unless you get an obvious one that stands out as absolutely ready….
Blood too many young players at once risks a loss and team confidence and belief

You’re wrong what you say and just sound impatient.
 
I don’t think I’m impatient. Next year will be our eighth consecutive season outside the top flight. I do expect us to challenge to get back up there every season we’re not in it, and this season hasn’t been good enough. It’s been closer to Warnock’s full season than last season. A huge disappointment. In my opinion of course.

I look at other clubs with category 1 academy set-ups and they seem to make sure their graduates are playing senior football. If they’re not playing at their clubs they’re out on loan. Some of them are out on loan in the Championship but we are constantly told ours aren’t good enough to play. And yet we watch several of our seniors demonstrate they’re not good enough week in, week out, month in, month out.

You can say I’m impatient but I profoundly disagree. Boro should not be treading water in division two with three league games left to play. In the 30-odd years I’ve been going, that’s always been considered well, well below par and well below what’s acceptable.

This club carries too many senior players who aren’t delivering. It has done for years and years. There is no pathway from the academy to our senior team. You can pretend there is all you like but sitting a few of kids on the bench for two months without then kicking a ball isn’t the same as bringing them through or giving them an opportunity. We’ve been told if they’re ready they’ll get a chance for years when it’s not true. Wilder and Hackney should show us most managers can get things wrong. Very wrong in that case.

Anyone who won’t be here next season should not be playing any of the remaining games. If they haven’t convinced the club they’re worthy of a contract now then I’d be alarmed if the person responsible for handing out contracts had their mind changed on the back of three matches.

This is the perfect time to have a look at our most promising youth team players. I’d be really disappointed if Carrick didn’t take it tbh.
 
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I think there is a chance that Finch may get more than the 10 minute cameo he got v Swansea but makes no sense in dropping Lath in the form he is in. If we remain unbeaten it will be confidence boosting for the start of next season, where I think most of the youngsters will end up on loan and we will have squad upgrades where needed, limiting the youngsters chances of game time here.
 
I don’t think I’m impatient. Next year will be our eighth consecutive season outside the top flight. I do expect us to challenge to get back up there every season we’re not in it, and this season hasn’t been good enough. It’s been closer to Warnock’s full season than last season. A huge disappointment. In my opinion of course.

I look at other clubs with category 1 academy set-ups and they seem to make sure their graduates are playing senior football. If they’re not playing at their clubs they’re out on loan. Some of them are out on loan in the Championship but we are constantly told ours aren’t good enough to play. And yet we watch several of our seniors demonstrate they’re not good enough week in, week out, month in, month out.

You can say I’m impatient but I profoundly disagree. Boro should not be treading water in division two with three league games left to play. In the 30-odd years I’ve been going, that’s always been considered well, well below par and well below what’s acceptable.

This club carries too many senior players who aren’t delivering. It has done for years and years. There is no pathway from the academy to our senior team. You can pretend there is all you like but sitting a few of kids on the bench for two months without then kicking a ball isn’t the same as bringing them through or giving them an opportunity. We’ve been told if they’re ready they’ll get a chance for years when it’s not true. Wilder and Hackney should show us most managers can get things wrong. Very wrong in that case.

Anyone who won’t be here next season should not be playing any of the remaining games. If they haven’t convinced the club they’re worthy of a contract now then I’d be alarmed if the person responsible for handing out contracts had their mind changed on the back of three matches.

This is the perfect time to have a look at our most promising youth team players. I’d be really disappointed if Carrick didn’t take it tbh.
Completely agree with this. Any player not here next season should not be playing the remaining games. What benefit would that be to MFC?. Take the opportunity to give some senior game time to the likes of McCabe, Finch etc. I think it is the perfect opportunity to do so and you never know, we might see a young 'un thrive in the 1st team environment...it wouldn't be the first time.
 
I don’t think I’m impatient. Next year will be our eighth consecutive season outside the top flight. I do expect us to challenge to get back up there every season we’re not in it, and this season hasn’t been good enough. It’s been closer to Warnock’s full season than last season. A huge disappointment. In my opinion of course.

I look at other clubs with category 1 academy set-ups and they seem to make sure their graduates are playing senior football. If they’re not playing at their clubs they’re out on loan. Some of them are out on loan in the Championship but we are constantly told ours aren’t good enough to play. And yet we watch several of our seniors demonstrate they’re not good enough week in, week out, month in, month out.

You can say I’m impatient but I profoundly disagree. Boro should not be treading water in division two with three league games left to play. In the 30-odd years I’ve been going, that’s always been considered well, well below par and well below what’s acceptable.

This club carries too many senior players who aren’t delivering. It has done for years and years. There is no pathway from the academy to our senior team. You can pretend there is all you like but sitting a few of kids on the bench for two months without then kicking a ball isn’t the same as bringing them through or giving them an opportunity. We’ve been told if they’re ready they’ll get a chance for years when it’s not true. Wilder and Hackney should show us most managers can get things wrong. Very wrong in that case.

Anyone who won’t be here next season should not be playing any of the remaining games. If they haven’t convinced the club they’re worthy of a contract now then I’d be alarmed if the person responsible for handing out contracts had their mind changed on the back of three matches.

This is the perfect time to have a look at our most promising youth team players. I’d be really disappointed if Carrick didn’t take it tbh.
You’re simplifying what is a more nuanced situation.
Reading this latest post, I’m not really sure where to begin.
Disappointed in the season yet we’ve had a horrendous injury list and STILL came close to qualifying for the playoffs.
I think you have lost some perspective there.
Or
You’re done with Carrick’ and his project - which is fine, and we could all remind you of the terrible football under Warnock and the disastrous woodgate tenure which would’ve taken us towards oblivion in league one.

Young players need nurturing alongside seasoned pros.
No pathway for young players ?
Just plainly untrue.
Hackney has pushed through. Finch got minutes in the Swansea game.
You are exaggerating somewhat.

The game financially has changed in the last 5 years and with FFP and we have no parachute payments to rely on.

Throwing in too many (more than 2) young players in any one game is a risk I don’t want to see because seasoned pros against youngsters is a gift to the opposition and we gain nothing if we are tonked from fielding too many young players: their confidence is dented and the collective team’s confidence is also impacted negatively.
Hence this is a nuanced situation and very much not as simple as ‘just throw them in’
and they will survive.
Denting a young players belief at this stage can be devastating for them - plus, I trust Carricks judgement on who is good enough and who needs time.
It doesn’t sound like you do trust our Boro manager. 🤔
 
I'd go full strength for Leeds, it's a key match for the league title and promotion and I don't think it'd be right to throw kids in.

Quite happy for opportunities to be given against Cardiff and Watford though, they're total dead rubbers for both teams, beyond finishing as high as possible.
Cardiff and Watford have nothing to play for, if we’re changing it round then is the time to do it
 
Finch can play wide (preferably from the right) so he could play without benching Lath. I think we should play our strongest team to the end including loan players but try and look for opportunities to get some of the young lads on earlier.
 
You’re simplifying what is a more nuanced situation.
Reading this latest post, I’m not really sure where to begin.
Disappointed in the season yet we’ve had a horrendous injury list and STILL came close to qualifying for the playoffs.
I think you have lost some perspective there.
Or
You’re done with Carrick’ and his project - which is fine, and we could all remind you of the terrible football under Warnock and the disastrous woodgate tenure which would’ve taken us towards oblivion in league one.

Young players need nurturing alongside seasoned pros.
No pathway for young players ?
Just plainly untrue.
Hackney has pushed through. Finch got minutes in the Swansea game.
You are exaggerating somewhat.

The game financially has changed in the last 5 years and with FFP and we have no parachute payments to rely on.

Throwing in too many (more than 2) young players in any one game is a risk I don’t want to see because seasoned pros against youngsters is a gift to the opposition and we gain nothing if we are tonked from fielding too many young players: their confidence is dented and the collective team’s confidence is also impacted negatively.
Hence this is a nuanced situation and very much not as simple as ‘just throw them in’
and they will survive.
Denting a young players belief at this stage can be devastating for them - plus, I trust Carricks judgement on who is good enough and who needs time.
It doesn’t sound like you do trust our Boro manager. 🤔
As with everything, there is context and nuance. Injuries haven’t helped us at all. But if you’re talking about injuries, you have to also talk about how on earth the club could go into January in need of strengthening and somehow come out of it weaker. There are several reasons why we are where we are.

I’m not done with Carrick at all. I really like him. But being a manager of Middlesbrough means, should mean, has always meant, you look to the youth teams. I was very optimistic Carrick was fully invested in it when he kept Hackney in the team - how could he have dropped him though, tbf - and gave Willis some time off the bench last winter. But since then, nobody has come through. The club has stockpiled senior players and clogged up the pathway.

This is just my opinion and I’ve posted on several times so it’s probably boring by now, but I believe that a category 1 academy should be producing players capable of stepping into the first-team of a squad that has been, let’s face it, way off the pace all season. If they’re not producing anyone capable of even coming off the bench for 10, 15, 20mins here and there during the worst injury crisis in living memory then what on earth is going on?

Personally I’m sick of watching well-paid players get chance after chance after chance. Our first-team squad is massive. Some of these players have been hanging around for ages as well. The best Boro managers take a keen interest in developing our own players. It should be a condition of taking and accepting the job.

Like when we see yet another defender hobbling off injured and he either has to change the entire shape of the team or ask Howson to play centre back again, you just think Christ have we really not developed even one lad who actually plays at centre half?

And I’m not saying we should start the next match with five teenage debutants. I’m saying there’s been a clutch of them sitting on the bench for a chunk of this year. Finch needs to play. McCabe needs to play. You have Woolston, Willis, Bridge, Nkrumah. Can these lads get a game, produce something that makes someone take notice and convince a manager of a third or fourth-tier club to think right, I want that lad in my team next season? That’s what happened with Coburn. He showed his promise, people were after him. Same with Hackney.

The crop from this season must be sent out loan this summer. What we don’t want, which we seem to see time and again with Boro, is lads coming through at 17, 18 and then still being here at 21, 22 having barely played any senior football. Players like Coulson, Walker, Robinson, Malley. They come through and their development seems to grind to a halt. I understand there can be a lot of factors as to why that’s happening but it feels like it happens a lot with Boro. To me there’s a disconnect, a gap, a line where their development just stops.

You also mentioned FFP and money. Another reason we should be developing our own players is to sell them on for good money which can then be reinvested. At the moment there is no conveyor belt. But I think that’s quite concerning considering the status and expense of our academy set up.

It’s only my opinion obvs, I don’t expect anyone to agree.
 
Finch can play wide (preferably from the right) so he could play without benching Lath. I think we should play our strongest team to the end including loan players but try and look for opportunities to get some of the young lads on earlier.
Totally agree.
 
As with everything, there is context and nuance. Injuries haven’t helped us at all. But if you’re talking about injuries, you have to also talk about how on earth the club could go into January in need of strengthening and somehow come out of it weaker. There are several reasons why we are where we are.

I’m not done with Carrick at all. I really like him. But being a manager of Middlesbrough means, should mean, has always meant, you look to the youth teams. I was very optimistic Carrick was fully invested in it when he kept Hackney in the team - how could he have dropped him though, tbf - and gave Willis some time off the bench last winter. But since then, nobody has come through. The club has stockpiled senior players and clogged up the pathway.

This is just my opinion and I’ve posted on several times so it’s probably boring by now, but I believe that a category 1 academy should be producing players capable of stepping into the first-team of a squad that has been, let’s face it, way off the pace all season. If they’re not producing anyone capable of even coming off the bench for 10, 15, 20mins here and there during the worst injury crisis in living memory then what on earth is going on?

Personally I’m sick of watching well-paid players get chance after chance after chance. Our first-team squad is massive. Some of these players have been hanging around for ages as well. The best Boro managers take a keen interest in developing our own players. It should be a condition of taking and accepting the job.

Like when we see yet another defender hobbling off injured and he either has to change the entire shape of the team or ask Howson to play centre back again, you just think Christ have we really not developed even one lad who actually plays at centre half?

And I’m not saying we should start the next match with five teenage debutants. I’m saying there’s been a clutch of them sitting on the bench for a chunk of this year. Finch needs to play. McCabe needs to play. You have Woolston, Willis, Bridge, Nkrumah. Can these lads get a game, produce something that makes someone take notice and convince a manager of a third or fourth-tier club to think right, I want that lad in my team next season? That’s what happened with Coburn. He showed his promise, people were after him. Same with Hackney.

The crop from this season must be sent out loan this summer. What we don’t want, which we seem to see time and again with Boro, is lads coming through at 17, 18 and then still being here at 21, 22 having barely played any senior football. Players like Coulson, Walker, Robinson, Malley. They come through and their development seems to grind to a halt. I understand there can be a lot of factors as to why that’s happening but it feels like it happens a lot with Boro. To me there’s a disconnect, a gap, a line where their development just stops.

You also mentioned FFP and money. Another reason we should be developing our own players is to sell them on for good money which can then be reinvested. At the moment there is no conveyor belt. But I think that’s quite concerning considering the status and expense of our academy set up.

It’s only my opinion obvs, I don’t expect anyone to agree.
I don’t agree, which is fine. It sounds like you have an issue with the development team because if you do trust Carrick then trust his judgment that certain players are not ready!!!
 
I don’t agree, which is fine. It sounds like you have an issue with the development team because if you do trust Carrick then trust his judgment that certain players are not ready!!!
I just wonder what they’re producing if they’re not producing players capable of being picked during huge injury crises. Carrick may well be correct, he might think sh*t, we’ve only got Finch and the rest just aren’t up to it. But that would support my point - how can a category 1 academy fail to produce players of a standard for a second-tier club that’s been well off where they want to be all season and decimated by injuries? Are they really that bad?

Something doesn’t add up. It could be that we need a new approach. If the talent isn’t there at the moment then that’s a very worrying thing imo. It suggests a deeper problem.
 
If there's an area of the pitch where we should try a youngster, and only if he's performing extremely well in first team training, it's central midfield.

Howson is our best central midfielder, I'd be looking to slot one in alongside him to be given a chance while Howson is still able to compete and lead.

We have a striker who is starting to become consistent, we have a defence settling in well together. You don't change for the sake of change in those departments.

Central midfield is patched up, if there's a decent youngster in the fold that's where we need one.
 
I don’t think I’m impatient. Next year will be our eighth consecutive season outside the top flight. I do expect us to challenge to get back up there every season we’re not in it, and this season hasn’t been good enough. It’s been closer to Warnock’s full season than last season. A huge disappointment. In my opinion of course.

I look at other clubs with category 1 academy set-ups and they seem to make sure their graduates are playing senior football. If they’re not playing at their clubs they’re out on loan. Some of them are out on loan in the Championship but we are constantly told ours aren’t good enough to play. And yet we watch several of our seniors demonstrate they’re not good enough week in, week out, month in, month out.

You can say I’m impatient but I profoundly disagree. Boro should not be treading water in division two with three league games left to play. In the 30-odd years I’ve been going, that’s always been considered well, well below par and well below what’s acceptable.

This club carries too many senior players who aren’t delivering. It has done for years and years. There is no pathway from the academy to our senior team. You can pretend there is all you like but sitting a few of kids on the bench for two months without then kicking a ball isn’t the same as bringing them through or giving them an opportunity. We’ve been told if they’re ready they’ll get a chance for years when it’s not true. Wilder and Hackney should show us most managers can get things wrong. Very wrong in that case.

Anyone who won’t be here next season should not be playing any of the remaining games. If they haven’t convinced the club they’re worthy of a contract now then I’d be alarmed if the person responsible for handing out contracts had their mind changed on the back of three matches.

This is the perfect time to have a look at our most promising youth team players. I’d be really disappointed if Carrick didn’t take it tbh.
I suspect the coaches have a look at the younger players all the time. The ones that are progressing will train with the seniors and it will be obvious to the coaches which are ready to step up.

What you mean is you want to have a look. And that's fine, but don't conflate the two things viv.
 
I just wonder what they’re producing if they’re not producing players capable of being picked during huge injury crises. Carrick may well be correct, he might think sh*t, we’ve only got Finch and the rest just aren’t up to it. But that would support my point - how can a category 1 academy fail to produce players of a standard for a second-tier club that’s been well off where they want to be all season and decimated by injuries? Are they really that bad?

Something doesn’t add up. It could be that we need a new approach. If the talent isn’t there at the moment then that’s a very worrying thing imo. It suggests a deeper problem.
Pushing whatever deeper problem you think there is to one side - just want to pick up on the ‘new approach needed’
There is a whole new approach being adopted by KS and his team, going out and finding ‘enough’ talent in forss Engel Rav Mcgree etc etc Talent that’s affordable given our financial constraints but hopefully talented enough to get us to the premier league and the big bucks irrespective of whether we can stay up, it supports us and if the existing talent can’t make the jump in quality we add to the squad where we can without busting our budgets and become stronger if we drop back down keeping the manager and building again and looking at a higher ranked pool of players whereby we are able to nudge them more wages than currently trusting Carrick to get the best out of them ALL whilst still trying to integrate talented young players….🤷‍♂️
 
Pushing whatever deeper problem you think there is to one side - just want to pick up on the ‘new approach needed’
There is a whole new approach being adopted by KS and his team, going out and finding ‘enough’ talent in forss Engel Rav Mcgree etc etc Talent that’s affordable given our financial constraints but hopefully talented enough to get us to the premier league and the big bucks irrespective of whether we can stay up, it supports us and if the existing talent can’t make the jump in quality we add to the squad where we can without busting our budgets and become stronger if we drop back down keeping the manager and building again and looking at a higher ranked pool of players whereby we are able to nudge them more wages than currently trusting Carrick to get the best out of them ALL whilst still trying to integrate talented young players….🤷‍♂️
Then, the next time we try to get promoted we are in a stronger position than previous and can potentially stay up or need to spend less money to give us the best chance of staying up..similar to the Brentford model….not the same but similar 🤷‍♂️
 
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Another game, another set of reasons why we can’t play your own young players.

We can’t play them when we’re trying to go up, or trying to stay up, or trying to make the playoffs, or playing a team trying to go up. We must wait for the final day of the season and then people can say ‘well we won’t really learn anything from a dead rubber anyway so it’s a pointless exercise isn’t it.’

The argument that “if they’re good enough they they’ll play” doesn’t stand up. Hackney was good enough to play under Wilder but he wasn’t given the opportunity. What some of us are saying is - is it really too much to expect to see the best of our youth team given 2 or 3 runouts now our hopes of promotion are gone?

Personally I would be really disappointed if we never used these games to blood some of these kids. I’ve always been quite confident Carrick was committed to developing Boro’s young players but actually I’m not so sure any more. It will be interesting to see if he does it in the next 2-3 weeks instead of persisting with a clutch of senior players who either aren’t good enough or we don’t outright own, or both.

I agree with most of that and I'd have given Kav a shot when we had no strikers available...

But, do you not think the fact we've often had eight to ten players missing this season means that the management team think none of them are anywhere near?

I'd add the likes of Dijksteel, Gilbert, Silvera, Coulson, Billongo, Agyemang etc.

The fact they've featured so little when we have had multiple different injury crisis points over the season is telling to me.

I think if we go 3-5-2 he'll maybe start Finch, that's probably about it.

Edit: just read the rest of your posts Viv and you cover my point.
 
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…………….…Dieng
Dijksteel….Rav…..Clarke…..Engel
………Howson…..O’Brien
Jones…….Azaz……..Bangura
……………Lath
The brief glimpses of Engel and Bangura on the left looked promising I thought. I think that's an option Carrick should look closer at. Would tighten things up down that side as Engel gets left hung out to dry frequently.
 
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