The end?

zzzzz said:

Thanks borolad. Your optimism isn't reflected in the reporting elsewhere.

The Russians have been firing ordnance at a rate of 5/1 compared to the Ukranians
And when the numbers were spun it had little effect on the front lines.
For sure Russian loses outstrip several times over the Ukranians but thats been the case just about throughout the war.

I'm just in awe of what the Ukraine has done and continues to do but there needs to be some tangible gains now to match the latest supply of hardware.
If there isn't I fear there won't be another major supply push from a West that has becoming more weary of it as time goes on and as elections loom on both sides of the pond so will focus.

Just my perception and I do appreciate that you have better detail and knowledge of the reality on the ground but given the info thats there for the general public I don't think public opinion will differ too much from it.

Click to expand...

Let's just say that your information sources aren't that good. Especially if the telegraph is one of the better ones.

I'm not sure that the 5-1 ratio is correct, but what you have to factor in is the accuracy and range of that ordnance. It's true that the UAF have had to be a bit frugal in recent months, but what they do fire is better targeted and much more effective.

You remember that 40km long convoy approaching Kyiv? Remember all to boasts of superior T90 tanks? Where are they all now? Of course, given that the Russian "elite" in government do not give a hoot about their footsoldiers and given their view that they will win in the end by constantly draining Ukrainian consumable stocks (it nearly worked) ... their stubbornness has meant that it has taken a much longer time to degrade their capabilities than would have been thought, if normal war metrics were applied. The fact is, those metrics haven't been...and they have been able to wheel out a lot of old 1960s hardware to keep things going. even that is running out. Ukraine finally has superiority in tank numbers (and better stuff) and they finally have the capability to defeat the Russian airforce. This is to the extent that (from Russian sources) their pilots are being sent on missions at gunpoint. Where are all the attack helicopters? Gone. What about the air bases in Crimea? Gone. Where is the Black Sea fleet? Gone.

Regardless of whether the USA comes on board, this is only going to continue to swing in Ukraine's favour.
Taurus missiles have now been OK'd for use. Meteors are dumping Su34s and Su35s out of the sky. Ukraine can now hit refineries and other military factories thousands of miles inside Russia (St Petersberg just 2 weeks ago).

There is a plan. I'm lucky enough to have a good idea what it is. But the UAF will not be coerced into an offensive before they are ready to see it right through .... with ample air support and sufficient stocks of consumables. They are playing a patient "game".

Meanwhile, I am sure it hasn't escaped your notice that wives and mothers have started protesting in the streets of Moscow, and are being arrested. Sure "A Putin" will win the election next month. But it will be pyrrhic.
I wish I could post more of what I actually know on here ... I just can't, for obvious reasons.
Keep the faith.

Thanks again, taken on board.
The 5:1 came from the BBC and tbf the Telegraph Ukraine blog IMO has always been pretty well informed (albeit a day or two behind you) and extremely well supportive.

zzzzz said:

Thanks borolad. Your optimism isn't reflected in the reporting elsewhere.

The Russians have been firing ordnance at a rate of 5/1 compared to the Ukranians
And when the numbers were spun it had little effect on the front lines.
For sure Russian loses outstrip several times over the Ukranians but thats been the case just about throughout the war.

I'm just in awe of what the Ukraine has done and continues to do but there needs to be some tangible gains now to match the latest supply of hardware.
If there isn't I fear there won't be another major supply push from a West that has becoming more weary of it as time goes on and as elections loom on both sides of the pond so will focus.

Just my perception and I do appreciate that you have better detail and knowledge of the reality on the ground but given the info thats there for the general public I don't think public opinion will differ too much from it.

Click to expand...

Hey zzzzz

Your response is totally ok based on the quality of the reporting and hot takes from the typical western press/media

Perpetually reporting at the squaddie on the front line perspective where it is an unimaginable horror show and heightening the pyscho drama of the will they wont they pass the bill in Washington. or the trouble at the top angle on the reshuffle of the UKR military leadership. Thats deemed newsworthy.

There hasnt been a single serious long read in the UK press or news channels on how UKR has basically changed the rules on naval warfare globally through its continuing destruction of the Rashist Black Sea Fleet freeing up the Western Black Sea and through its own efforts have basically freed up a safe ish route for its exports from Odessa etc. But as its not land with the names of villages/towns and a map where they can change the colour of who occupies it (Actually when was the last informed peice in a mainstream outlet about the UKR performance in Krynky taking gain after gain east of the Dniepr?) its a bit abstract for a generalist mainstream journo to get a handle on its significance - so they talk to a squaddie who has had to see his mates blown up and having to retreat after delaying the advance of the worlds second military for months at the cost to the Z forces of north of 20k KIA to gain a patch of rubble. Its the major conflict reporting equivilant of Gazette face.

Honestly it is going to be ok for us - we wont be bleeding and dying - but thats at the cost of many thousands more UKR lives and possibly hundreds of thousands of Ruzzian lives. Its sad and infuriating that the broader picture is not being delivered by folk we are supposed to rely on.

Am going to sound like a conspiracy theorist here but its about info sources. This board has been the single biggest suprise for getting as close to a clear eyed strategic perspective as you could want - but additionally sifting through the socials on both the UKR and Z side its clear from the tone and images that Ruzzia has lost - see Borolads reference to Murz topping himself - Its just that UKR is weary and frustrated and angry with us. The West needs to do better and faster

Decent_Left said:

Hey zzzzz

Your response is totally ok based on the quality of the reporting and hot takes from the typical western press/media

Perpetually reporting at the squaddie on the front line perspective where it is an unimaginable horror show and heightening the pyscho drama of the will they wont they pass the bill in Washington. or the trouble at the top angle on the reshuffle of the UKR military leadership. Thats deemed newsworthy.

There hasnt been a single serious long read in the UK press or news channels on how UKR has basically changed the rules on naval warfare globally through its continuing destruction of the Rashist Black Sea Fleet freeing up the Western Black Sea and through its own efforts have basically freed up a safe ish route for its exports from Odessa etc. But as its not land with the names of villages/towns and a map where they can change the colour of who occupies it (Actually when was the last informed peice in a mainstream outlet about the UKR performance in Krynky taking gain after gain east of the Dniepr?) its a bit abstract for a generalist mainstream journo to get a handle on its significance - so they talk to a squaddie who has had to see his mates blown up and having to retreat after delaying the advance of the worlds second military for months at the cost to the Z forces of north of 20k KIA to gain a patch of rubble. Its the major conflict reporting equivilant of Gazette face.

Honestly it is going to be ok for us we wont be bleeding and dying - but thats at the cost of many thousands more UKR lives and possibly hundreds of thousands of Ruzzian lives. Its sad and infuriating that the broader picture is not being delivered by folk we are supposed to rely on.

Click to expand...

And I get that a picture of an empty shell rack or giving airtime to a soldier to camera pleading for more artillery makes for better telly than everything good that you and borolad report but thats my point.
Thats the perception that drives the public narrative that dictates the level of support from the politicians making the decisions.

zzzzz said:

And I get that a picture of an empty shell rack or giving airtime to a soldier to camera pleading for more artillery makes for better telly than everything good that you and borolad report but thats my point.
Thats the perception that drives the public narrative that dictates the level of support from the politicians making the decisions.

Click to expand...

& Its a fair point zzzzz so its up to us - people on a notionally football message board who bizarrely have access to an incredible info source who know better - to stick with it and keep challenging that perspective.

Slava Ukraini

it would be great to see lavrov cop it one day. he is one smug, irritating mother@@@@@@. but very very good at being a clever, manipulative barsteward.

Well, as I understand it, after Lavrov's plane was refused fuel in Brasilia, he was flown to Rio in one of the President's planes ... which was, shall we say, no modern, shiny and very safe. Apparently, the Russian plan is for Moscow to send its one other remaining long range jet, which will fuel to the brim in Venazuela, fly to Brasil, transfer fuel from its tanks to Lavrov's plane's tanks so that Lavrov's plane can fly (with the replacement) to Venazuela where it wil fuel to the brim for the return journey. I think both may need to re-fuel somewhere in Africa, but not absolutely certain on that one.

But .... what could possibly go wrong? An over-fuelled large jet trying to land at a notoriously difficult and dangerous airport!!

Lavrov's humiliation thus far has been priceless anyway. So much for BRICS.

I think some of zzzz's issues are my fault, as I have rather neglected keeping this thread in the loop.

Here's something from a day or two ago that I think I can share. It relates to the reason why Ukraine is no longer suffering so much shell hunger.

"When dealing with Chinese it is imperative that you always remember that any deal with the Chinese is transactional and business oriented.
What may be hard to grasp though is that sometimes Chinese see profit in a slightly different light than the purely economical.

The purchase of the 800K shells was done at cost, hence the low price.
On top of that China agreed to cut 20 percent of the amount, thusly China is incurring a net loss on the sale, and as it seems on the follow up deal.

So, what is in it for the Chinese, what is their perceived profit in this deal if it is not for pure economic profit?
The answer is that they are playing a long game visavi EU, while at the same time playing a short term game against the US.

It is no small thing for China to be able to bail out EU on shells due to the US failing as an ally of both Ukraine and EU.
EU had no option left but to turn to China to save Ukraine, and this is 100 percent on the heads of our so called ally the US.
If they had done their part we would never have had to do it.
And the US can rest assured that China will use this to **** in copious amounts on US over the next few months, it will be done in private, but it will be golden and very wet.

To China EU is the Hen that lays Golden Eggs, we stand for more than half of all Chinese export sales, to China losing us as trading partners is the ultimate nightmare, so they did not exactly have a choice in helping us, but they will never admit that.
From a Chinese standpoint they have now proven that they are more reliable partner than the US for EU, and also firmly placed that partnership where it is important for the Chinese, and that is as a Trade Partnership.

China has therefore asked for the opportunity to expand this into a full on Trade Agreement, and they will get that, obviously the EU is not stupid, so they will negotiate in terms and conditions that are a mile long...

European Eastern Transport Corridor
Having attempted and failed at creating the Silk Road Project China lost face internally, it is to date Xi's by far largest failure, and that is a royal pain in his ****.
He lost oodles of cash, and credibility at home on that one.

And in saunters the EU and just decide to do the exact thing that Xi wanted to do, and failed at, stung his pride and created an accute problem for him longterm.
If EU succeed then China will forever be second rung to EU from a Chinese perspective.
Yes, they would use it for trade, but every single time would be a mosquito bite on the Chinese pride.

So, China had a single real demand, and that is summed up as "we want in".
This would be Xi's opportunity to come and say to the Chinese people, we have decided to build the Silk Road in partnership with our bestie tradepartner EU.
Face saved, and Xi gets his dream project back on track.
How important is the Silk Road for China?
Lifesaving.

And for EU it is our road to expansion and security to the East, as well as a very important trade corridor alternative that will secure our trade if Houthi's or someone else decide to take a stab at us.
Especially if we can make the entire stretch a part of EU.
And for China getting the Silk Road to EU is well worth chucking a dozen Russias under the Bus.
Just wait for it, it will be China that in the end "propose" that Russia should pay their restitution by handing over Rostov Oblast to Ukraine...

The Cost
If El Humpo come to power and go after China he will find that he is all alone in this world.
There is no chance in hell now that EU would even attempt to help the US visavi China, at least as long as China does not attack Taiwan, and China will not risk that for now.
And to be honest, with El Humpo in power we would probably chuck Taiwan to China if needs be.
The US forced EU to make a decission, and the US will from now on reap the results.

Chinese Shell Production
We did learn something very important in this deal, and that is the state of Chinese Arms Industry.
It is big, but not as big as we thought.
For instance, China is only producing 900K of 155mm shells per year, and about 1 000 000 122mm shells.
This means that EU is currently producing roughly 50 percent more than the Chinese, and that the disparity will continue to grow over the next few years.

It sort of speaks volumes about EU not being as deadbeat as we are constantly accused of being.
We have moved a mountain in the correct direction, and in the end we will get there.
And this is not only in regards of shells, it also is in regards of armour, drones, missiles, bombs...
We will very soon outproduce Russia with it's allies on our own.
I just wish that the road had been faster, and less painfilled."

Finally, at the risk that some of you may think I am glib/warmongering etc ... I was offered the opportunity to have one of the new fangled GLSDBs painted with a message for the Russian recipients. I opted for UTFB!

So far, two have been painted and used. One was used (somewhat in a hurry) on the elite motorised division that the Russians sent into Avdivka's northern pincer.... that elite division suffered 100% vehicle losses and 75% personnel. As I understand it, it was used before a photo was taken.

The second, much to the bemusement of the Ukrainian forces loading the Himars, was used on 3 supply trucks in the S. Kherson region. I actually have seen the video of that. I don't really like to post stuff like that though.

So I have asked for one more, specifically requesting a photograph of the UTFB! message. That request has been relayed by command (guess who). I am hoping we get that eventually, but I'm not holding my breath. Those guys have better things to worry about!

I do take exception to the daubing of messages on weaponry. To call it glib is scratching the surface. That is the kind of stuff I don't think should be posted and made public.
I would bet my house that most of the Russian soldiers do not want to be fighting any more than the Ukrainians.

MoggasDog said:

I do take exception to the daubing of messages on weaponry.

Click to expand...

It is nothing like as vile as firing them at each other. Indeed, the recipients will never get to see the message will they? Plus, it's hardly a new thing.

But you are right the vast majority of Russian soldiers would no doubt rather share a vodka with their opponents but as ever we throw away our youth. Fascinating though it is to discuss in a morbid fashion never forget the words of Edwin Starr...

What is it good for?

Absolutely nothing

MoggasDog said:

I do take exception to the daubing of messages on weaponry. To call it glib is scratching the surface. That is the kind of stuff I don't think should be posted and made public.
I would bet my house that most of the Russian soldiers do not want to be fighting any more than the Ukrainians.

Click to expand...

Maybe a lot of them don't, but a lot do. And they are an occupying force. Perhaps if they turned their weapons on the officers sending them to their inevitable death, then Ukraine would not have to fire anything upon them. I have been anti-war all my life. I could see that Hitler needed to be stopped in WW2 and I see that Putin/The Mob need to be stopped now. They will not stop at Ukraine.

borolad259 said:

Maybe a lot of them don't, but a lot do. And they are an occupying force. Perhaps if they turned their weapons on the officers sending them to their inevitable death, then Ukraine would not have to fire anything upon them. I have my been anti-war all my life. I could see that Hitler needed to be stopped in WW2 and I see that Putin/The Mob need to be stopped now. They will not stop at Ukraine.

Click to expand...

My point was that I really hope you don't post picture of the messages daubed on bombs. I understand that it goes on and has done for as long as war. Gallows humour/dogs of war, and all that.
A bit rich coming from me, maybe, but it would be in very bad taste, I think, to have photos of 'UTFB' daubed on a bomb, posted on here.

Like a lot us on here, I have been fascinated by this thread but this war shouldn't be made light of or glorified, on either side. I am sure that we all hope that this war should be stopped at the earliest opportunity.

It is dangerous to consider this war as 'us against them' or 'good versus evil' or even comparisons to WWII. It is irresponsible for people to consider that this is all down to Putin. He is clearly an evil maniac, but that has been obvious for years. He and his friends ransacked the natural resources of the old Soviet union but made sure to grease the palms of all those required to stay in power.
How about the politicians and businesses, all over the planet, that have taken the same man's money, hand over fist, for decades?
He bought half of fuc.king London but that was ok because the money went to the right places. They allowed him to manipulate so called western democratic elections etc. He used his ill gotten gains to tempt those in power and, to them, his blood money is as good as anybody else's.

Europe still fuc.king buys Russian gas. If they were seriously supportive of Ukraine, they would stop buying gas immediately. Total and utter hypocrisy.

Our 'effort' to help isn't for humanitarian or ideological reasons about freedom etc. It is about making money and do not be delusional to think otherwise. People are making a lot of money from this war. How long would countries like this war to continue for if they were donating all the weapons for free - as they would do if they believed in making a stand 'good vs evil'? Not very long at all, would be my guess. This war profiteering.

Ukraine is a proxy war with those who control it sitting comfortably, watching from 1000s of miles away whilst thousands of innocent Ukrainians and conscripted Russians are poured into a meat grinder, every single day. A lot of these poor bast.ards will die actually believing it was for a good cause.

MoggasDog said:

It is dangerous to consider this war as 'us against them' or 'good versus evil' or even comparisons to WWII. It is irresponsible for people to consider that this is all down to Putin. He is clearly an evil maniac, but that has been obvious for years. He and his friends ransacked the natural resources of the old Soviet union but made sure to grease the palms of all those required to stay in power.

Click to expand...

You make some apposite points about the people in the West happily taking Russian money and continuing to do so.

However, it should be obvious that Putin and his "dream" of expanding the Russian Empire/Sphere of influence is very much becoming "us against them". This alone makes for a valid comparison with Hitler, A. who sought to expand the Reich into Eastern Europe through any method short of war for many years prior to the invasion of Poland which finally cracked home the lesson that appeasing an avaricious dictator rarely ends peacefully.

On the subject of Russian gas, I'm not sure who is still buying it but if the choice is between your people freezing to death and using Russian gas that is an easy decision to make from an island which is not reliant on it, less so for a democratically appointed leader.

Yes, the military supplies industry will make a lot of money from this war, things that go bang aren't cheap. But they are manufactured in this country and it creates jobs and passes wealth into the economic system.

All modern wars are "proxy wars" gone are the days of kings leading the charge. You'd think that Homo Sapiens might learn but there doesn't seem to be much sign of that.

zzzzz said:

Thanks borolad. Your optimism isn't reflected in the reporting elsewhere.

Click to expand...

This is why I was asking about Borolad's thoughts on the telegraph podcast, which I have listed to since they started. They are much less optimistic, especially over the last month or so, than the posts I read from Borolad's front line contact.

All a bit confusing and ISW remains rather downbeat too.

Tryasize10 said:

This is why I was asking about Borolad's thoughts on the telegraph podcast, which I have listed to since they started. They are much less optimistic, especially over the last month or so, than the posts I read from Borolad's front line contact.

All a bit confusing and ISW remains rather downbeat too.

Click to expand...

Both are operating days, if not weeks, behind the actual narrative. For understandable reasons I guess.
For instance the Chinese shells didn't get much coverage.

Nor has the rather sneaky batch of brand new Scandi gear about to hit the front.

And some places are still unaware of what planes are doing the damage .... in fact many of them, including the ISW (who ought to know better) are stating that patriots are doing the damage to the Russian jets, when technically, it wouldn't have been possible (where and how they were flying).

That said, our man is, as of today, no longer directly involved.
Still has other very significant roles though.

Tryasize10 said:

This is why I was asking about Borolad's thoughts on the telegraph podcast, which I have listed to since they started. They are much less optimistic, especially over the last month or so, than the posts I read from Borolad's front line contact.

All a bit confusing and ISW remains rather downbeat too.

Click to expand...

Couple of points regarding this and following on into zzzzz's point earlier up the thread.

The BBC news site has a tab titled War On Ukraine - bit of a tone its offering isn't it & personally I could do without a piece on Navalny appearing on it as he was ultimately just another Russian nationalist. But take this week - 7 Z Su's shot down this week a definitive shift in air control has occurred and no article.

The Czechs "find" 800k shells in a cupboard somewhere - no follow up on just where this cupboard was - we know - why and how dont they know - and again no article about it and in mainstream PR where it does get reported its framed as the west squabbling about paying for them rather than what it means to the frontline.

Secondly, as for the "strategic" think tanks, their reputation suffered from such a hammering post Jan/Feb 22 they have basically been "Mearsheimered" and are still way behind the curve.

Final thought - For info beyond our usual suspects I've found Info from the Baltic states (thank you google translate) to be really important and tbh when Kaja Kallis or Landsbergis say something it carries more weight than our mob or even the White House does now.

We didn't have this on our bingo cards earlier.

"Earlier today I was happy about going, take a shower, and sleep in between my own sheets.
But, that was apparently not gonna happen.

Earlier today the HQ of the Swedish Security Police was attacked by unknown agent with Fosgen gas, an old battle gas used primerily during World War I.
8 police officers have been brought to hospital with various degrees of respiratory problems, so far all victims are alive, but battle gases are insidious and the full extent of damages will not be known up to 3 days.
It is also possible that more police officers and civilians will start to develop symptoms in the next day or so.

Gas was detected both in the SSP HQ and in adjacent buildings where civilians live at dangerous levels, concentrations was so high that people could smell the tell tale odour of wet paint, and before you can smell it you have well passed any safe levels.

Currently due to the low amount of wounded, and no killed, it is believed that the delivery system failed to complete what it had been designed to do.

Suspects
The investigation is currently running along 3 lines, and currently none of them is more probably than the other.
The first line is that it was a state actor that directly performed the attack.
There is obviously no shortage of such countries, but high on the list is Iran, Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Russia.
What is somewhat talking against this is that the delivery method failed, and that not a more potent gas was used.
It could though have been a warning on the brink of Sweden joining NATO, and after record breaking weapons packages to Ukraine.

The second line is an international terrorist organisation.
Almost all of those are backed by a state of one kind or another, and many of them are known to have access to various battle gases, often more effective.

The third line of investigation is that this is a homegrown terror organisation, for instance The Foxtrot Network under the Turkish terrorist leader Rawa Majid.
Another organisation high on any list would be the NMR - Nordiska Motståndsrörelsen (Nordic Resistance Movement), they are an ultra-rightwing nazi terrorist organisation closely associated with the Sverige Demokratern Party that is partially in the Swedish government.
The NMR is known to be partially funded by Russia, same with the SD Party.
The second alternative for a homegrown terrorist would be a lone person acting out of ideology/religion.

Personally I would guess that it is either an international or domestic terror organisation working on behest of Russia.

Ramifications
Attacking one of the central security organisations of a country is a declaration of war.
Especially if it is done with a Weapon of Mass Destruction, and yes Fosgen is classed as a WMD.

Sweden will obviously investigate this into oblivion to be certain that they know who did it.
So far during the war Sweden is one of the hardest hit countries in regards of cyber attacks, and physical attacks against infrastructure and digital physical assets.
The industry has also been targeted.
Very little have been written about this, but there have been a low level war for about 6 months now, and there have been several clandestine operations as Sweden has struck back.

After finding out who and what it was that attacked Sweden this openly and brasenly it is a very low odds bet that Sweden will strike back, and it will be very hard.
Depending on who the culprits are, and to whom beyond the trace goes, we can assume anything from mass arrests, all the way up to a bigger military strike.

Do not be surprised if Sweden set a new record in asking for NATO assistance within minutes of handing in the agreement with Hungary late in the evening on Monday in Washington.
Obviously NATO is fully informed, same goes for JEF, and a request have gone out to all trusted intelligence agencies around the world for information and assistance.

I will write more as soon as I know more."

Also, A-50 (and, apparently, its escort) taken down over the sea of Asov (Ukraine losing again)

Meteor strike

The Beeb are already on it...


BBC Sweden thing

MoggasDog said:

My point was that I really hope you don't post picture of the messages daubed on bombs. I understand that it goes on and has done for as long as war. Gallows humour/dogs of war, and all that.
A bit rich coming from me, maybe, but it would be in very bad taste, I think, to have photos of 'UTFB' daubed on a bomb, posted on here.

Like a lot us on here, I have been fascinated by this thread but this war shouldn't be made light of or glorified, on either side. I am sure that we all hope that this war should be stopped at the earliest opportunity.

It is dangerous to consider this war as 'us against them' or 'good versus evil' or even comparisons to WWII. It is irresponsible for people to consider that this is all down to Putin. He is clearly an evil maniac, but that has been obvious for years. He and his friends ransacked the natural resources of the old Soviet union but made sure to grease the palms of all those required to stay in power.
How about the politicians and businesses, all over the planet, that have taken the same man's money, hand over fist, for decades?
He bought half of fuc.king London but that was ok because the money went to the right places. They allowed him to manipulate so called western democratic elections etc. He used his ill gotten gains to tempt those in power and, to them, his blood money is as good as anybody else's.

Europe still fuc.king buys Russian gas. If they were seriously supportive of Ukraine, they would stop buying gas immediately. Total and utter hypocrisy.

Our 'effort' to help isn't for humanitarian or ideological reasons about freedom etc. It is about making money and do not be delusional to think otherwise. People are making a lot of money from this war. How long would countries like this war to continue for if they were donating all the weapons for free - as they would do if they believed in making a stand 'good vs evil'? Not very long at all, would be my guess. This war profiteering.

Ukraine is a proxy war with those who control it sitting comfortably, watching from 1000s of miles away whilst thousands of innocent Ukrainians and conscripted Russians are poured into a meat grinder, every single day. A lot of these poor bast.ards will die actually believing it was for a good cause.

Click to expand...

"I am sure that we all hope that this war should be stopped at the earliest opportunity." Absolutely. So short of defeating Russia militarily, so they have to come to the negotiating table, I have yet to see a sensible proposal for how this might happen. All I've seen are short sighted (possibly well meaning) suggestions Ukraine should suck up their territorial losses. Until Putin gets taken out by a faction that want to talk, or all the officers fall out of windows, or Putin's circle believe the only way out with their money safely is negotiation, killing as many Russians as possible is the only option open to Ukraine and those countries to the West (and some a little bit East of Kaliningrad) of Russia. I have to confess, in the early days of this I believed Ukraine would end up split along the Dnipro along Orthodox\Catholic lines. I now think it entirely possible the Oblasts bordering Ukraine will end up being supervised by a 'peacekeeping' force. Russia already had a massive demographic time bomb coming and this has worsened it. They ain't gonna rebuild what has been lost already easily, and worse is yet to come. So grateful to borolad259 and his Mate for this thread.