No come off it. Nothing close to the PLP with Corbyn. Besides don't bother comparing how they are now. Wait until the day after a new leader is actually elected and watch them all fall in line. There'll be no tories MPs carrying on like say Yvette Cooper or Liz Kendall were, and ruling themselves out of cabinet positions. There'll be no tories carrying on like Margaret Hodge and screaming insults at the new tory leader in the HoC. It's not comparable.
Starmer reneges on nationalisation plans
- Thread starter dorivasmiddlefinger
- Start date
No come off it. Nothing close to the PLP with Corbyn. Besides don't bother comparing how they are now. Wait until the day after a new leader is actually elected and watch them all fall in line. There'll be no tories MPs carrying on like say Yvette Cooper or Liz Kendall were, and ruling themselves out of cabinet positions. There'll be no tories carrying on like Margaret Hodge and screaming insults at the new tory leader in the HoC. It's not comparable.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
I disagree, they sabotaged Theresa May to get Johnson in and now 3 years and a big election win later they have seen off Boris Johnson as well. Liz Truss actually voted Remain but now has the backing of the pro Brexit ERG.
The Tories are a disunited shambles with poor policies but people still keep voting for them.
Why do you think that is?
FatCat
Well-known member
No decent opposition. Bringing it back to football did anyone see that Dele Ali miss the other day - that’s the equivalent of Labour. Everything is there for the taking but they have no policies or a leader who can take them there.
Maybe this is the root of where we disagree. To me there's really been no big change in the last 2 years that would suddenly mean socialist policies are unworkable.
You can talk about reducing hospital beds etc, that's just the same tory modus operandi as the last 40 years - they always cut public services back to the point of failure. It's not a reason to shy away from public spending investment, it's more reason to get on with it.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned £500bn of public debt. Add it to the other trillions. That's the financial system we have. Again, it's not a reason to bottle it and avoid public spending. It's shown that the options for the government to spend money are there if they care to use them.
If anything has changed in the last 2 years during covid, to me it's that the value of socialist policies has just been further proven. The one good part of the country's covid response was the vaccine rollout. Done via the publically owned NHS. The vaccine itself developed using public grants. The most shoddy and dodgy part of the country's response was the bit overly exposed to free market economics. The dodgy contracts to tories mates for PPE.
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Legitimate Rage Drove Brexit. Unless Starmer Channels It, The One Emotion That Overrides It (The Tories’ Secret Weapon) Will Triumph Again
On a football fan message board, a disagreement flares: “Starmer’s ruled out nationalising utilities. Well he’s lost my vote” opines one. A poster shoots back sarcastically that at least when the T…
calumlaw.wordpress.com
There were no tory MPs telling voters to vote Labour at the 2017 general election. There was Labour MPs doing the reverse.
If Starmer does lead Labour to an election win you won't catch tory MPs laughing and dancing on screen like Jess Phillips was in 2019.
You're right, they do force their leaders out when they get a whiff of personal advancement but they absolutely don't self sabotage during elections like Labour did in the Corbyn era.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
I don’t think people vote Tory on the basis of no opposition.
I don’t disagree with you on policy, I’m a socialist and want the Tories out.
InglebyUTB
Well-known member
Don’t forget the peerages that Johnson dished out to right wing Labour MPs who were happy to tour the TV studios telling the public to vote Tory and call Corbyn a racist and an anti-semite.
These people are disgusting, they sabotaged the our one chance to live in a decent country that wasn’t under the boot of neoliberal Tory cronyism.
Now we’re expected to fall in line and vote for Starmer regardless of whether he’s actually offering anything we want or not.p
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
I agree, Labour have to stick together both MPs and voters.
Look at the number of ‘Labour Tories’ who love joining a thread like this to show fake outrage against Starmer when their own party is disintegrating.
Divide and conquer, the old tactic of the rich to get on top of the working class.
The thought that bothers me is if you look at the Labour party's history there was about 30 years between Attlee and Foot as leader, and then another 30 odd between Foot and Corbyn. I'll probably be in my 60s before Labour dare to even try to shift the country left again.
How?@BoroFur will jump down your neck for saying that because of course it's disingenuous given that I immediately followed it with an explanation. And you haven't even done any emojis!
Here you go I'll explain again:
Starmer's party's record with BLM, GRT, the Trans community and even antisemitism is there for all to see.
When I say Starmer's party I mean the Labour party since 2020 (not 2019).With BLM Starmer fell out with the organisers by minimising their campaign. With GRT community Starmer's had candidates out delivering leaflets talking about "dealing with" them. With the trans community he's let Rosie Duffield insult and belittle people throughout his leadership. With antisemitism, as always gets pointed out on here, Starmer's kicked Jewish members out of the Labour party in a higher proportion than any other demographic. He always immediately went against the EHRC reports recommendations and got personally involved in disciplinary procedures.
Google her.
She holds widely held belief on sex, sex based law x the equalites act, and has widely held concerns about possible reforms to gender recognition certification via self ID.
And?
She's transphobic. She's vocal and prolific about it. He's done nothing about it for 2 years. Along with the other examples I gave it clearly contradicts the pledge he made regarding equality if he was Labour party leader.
If you're trying to divert off in to an argument about trans peoples rights I'm not interested.
Rosie Duffield wants to uphold equalities law. Thats a point about womens rights. Starmers equality pledge was regarding the equal pay act wasn't it?
BoroFur
Well-known member
I didn't limit my comment to the last two years, you did.
I'm not talking about pledges made in a leadership contest I'm talking about publication of policies.
You really need to stop selectively quoting people.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Andy_W
Well-known member
How many blue wall seats did the last three Labour leaders gain? In fact has anyone gained any since Blair?
Labour had like 210 seats in the last GE, and they're now predicted ~310, and we're only half way through, what more could you ever want or expect?
Also, more importantly, Tories are down from 365 to 247.
They were 162 behind, now they're predicted to be 63 in front, pretty much the fastest and largest 2.5 years swing in history.
Andy_W
Well-known member
It's mad that some people on here think that policies/ pledges/ manifesto's won't change due to pandemics, wars, extreme inflation, energy poverty etc, etc, etc, and then go on to criticise someone who is not even in power, or even had a vote on that yet, about having not enacted their pledges (which is impossible). Then they even further double down, banging on about 2015-2019, when they guy there enacted zero pledges, because he lost twice. The times then are even further detached from the reality of 2020, never mind now or 2025, draw a line under it and move on.
Times change, the situation changes, sometimes much quicker than others (now is the best example I've ever seen), so pledges, policies and priorities have to change, JC would have changed his list of pledges/ priorities too, and if he hadn't I'd have been asking why he's ignoring the key problems now.
It would be insane to talk about trying to fix old potholes when you've just had a meteor strike, followed by an earthquake. It would also be unwise to release a new list every month, as this would be easy for the Tories to attack.
It's absolutely critical that Labour aim to talk about how to tackle the key problems we're facing now, and hopefully the Tories enact some of them for the good of the UK. In some areas the Tories may even go one better, that's great, just take it and move on, and go after them for where they fall very short (there should be loads of chances).
We need to also keep an eye on what Labour could be dealing with, if/ when they take over in 2025, and it's likely that the situation will have changed considerably from now, so what they're talking about now may not even be a priority then, which is fine.
It's also likely that when the energy price settles (if it settles a lot lower), the Tories will get a bump in votes, the same as when the new leader comes in, they will probably also get a bump in votes, don't cry about it. I wasn't crying in Feb 21 when the Tories peaked high, I pointed out it was largely due to the good news/ vaccine rollout (even though by summer most nations would be the same), in fact I said that peak would soon wear off, and it did. The same people on here were crying back then about the predicted vote share, yet won't acknowledge the recent gains (highest share in 8 years I think), strange.
I can understand a little bit of in fighting in some circumstances (if you're in power and doing crap, if it's looking likely you won't win an election, if you lose an election, if you get battered in one, or if you're ignoring current major problems), but I just don't get it, when not in power, when polling so far ahead and especially after being so far behind.
Do people of sound mind whinge at Boro when we're 2-0 up at half time? Do they ask us to stick with the same team and tactics when we're 2-0 down with 10 minutes to go?
Times change, the situation changes, sometimes much quicker than others (now is the best example I've ever seen), so pledges, policies and priorities have to change, JC would have changed his list of pledges/ priorities too, and if he hadn't I'd have been asking why he's ignoring the key problems now.
It would be insane to talk about trying to fix old potholes when you've just had a meteor strike, followed by an earthquake. It would also be unwise to release a new list every month, as this would be easy for the Tories to attack.
It's absolutely critical that Labour aim to talk about how to tackle the key problems we're facing now, and hopefully the Tories enact some of them for the good of the UK. In some areas the Tories may even go one better, that's great, just take it and move on, and go after them for where they fall very short (there should be loads of chances).
We need to also keep an eye on what Labour could be dealing with, if/ when they take over in 2025, and it's likely that the situation will have changed considerably from now, so what they're talking about now may not even be a priority then, which is fine.
It's also likely that when the energy price settles (if it settles a lot lower), the Tories will get a bump in votes, the same as when the new leader comes in, they will probably also get a bump in votes, don't cry about it. I wasn't crying in Feb 21 when the Tories peaked high, I pointed out it was largely due to the good news/ vaccine rollout (even though by summer most nations would be the same), in fact I said that peak would soon wear off, and it did. The same people on here were crying back then about the predicted vote share, yet won't acknowledge the recent gains (highest share in 8 years I think), strange.
I can understand a little bit of in fighting in some circumstances (if you're in power and doing crap, if it's looking likely you won't win an election, if you lose an election, if you get battered in one, or if you're ignoring current major problems), but I just don't get it, when not in power, when polling so far ahead and especially after being so far behind.
Do people of sound mind whinge at Boro when we're 2-0 up at half time? Do they ask us to stick with the same team and tactics when we're 2-0 down with 10 minutes to go?
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InglebyUTB
Well-known member
Most of those pledges aren't impacted by any of that, and many are solutions to those problems.
Let's take economic justice, the first one. They refused to back an increase in taxes on those earning over £80,000, then they were to the right of the Tories on corporation tax rises, when they refused to back their increase.
These pledges are ones that he made, nobody forced him to do it. It's the only way we have to know what he stands for because he won't tell us any policies, so this is all we have to go on. Now he's withdrawn them and replaced them with word salad platitudes.
He promised to unite the party which was a total lie, he has overseen a purge of left wing members of the party and overridden many local branches by parachuting in preferred candidates against their wishes.
The left of the party and local branches have been spat in the face by Starmer, and these are the people who are expected to campaign for him and vote for him for no other reason than he's not a Tory (not officially anyway).
If he doesn't back nationalising rail franchises I personally won't vote for him. Which apparently shouldn't be a problem as he backs that, after his shadow chancellor said he didn't, and he said he didn't, then he said he did.