Sir Keir Starmer

FatCat said:
I think that the problem, he certainly fits the bill in PMQs questioning the gvt etc but we need to see what he has in terms of his own parties policies. It’s easy to criticise, most people could do that all day long. He needs to be more vocal about the alternative to this gvt that he can offer.
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You keep drumming the policy drum, but with no general election near by we won’t be getting any, anytime soon

But the Tories proved you just the most popular policy at the time of the election to win
 
GazC_MFC said:
You keep drumming the policy drum, but with no general election near by we won’t be getting any, anytime soon

But the Tories proved you just the most popular policy at the time of the election to win
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Not to mention, the only science around coronavirus they see is months out of date and mostly redacted.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Starmer has a lot of work to do to be considered a credible opposition.
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Forget Starmer, I think the Tories have a lot of work to do just now to be seen as a credible government. It’s a shambles. Johnson is already on his way out (I predict ‘health’ reasons) and by the next election Brexit will be something people argued a bit about a few years back. I think even now just a few months after the December election it will be a major surprise if the Tories manage to somehow scrape a majority at the next election.
 
I want to know how we can live in a perfect where JCB can check if Thier bulldozers are used to knock walls down

I am trying to think of the countries we should never deal with because of history; obviously not Germany and it's allies, Spain nope Franco, USA again no chance or any country it exports to, China nah what about the over 1 million Muslims locked up for their own good , every South American country had a dictator, cannot be Iceland due to the Cod wars, I think that leaves the Faroe Islands .
 
SmallTown said:
You kind of said nothing to be fair. I wondered what exactly it was we were gaining. You were unable to answer.

Don't feel bad, this is not untypical amongst people who defend Brexit.
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This is hilarious. It's like you have an automatic reflex. Slow down and re-read the thread. You might notice I wasn't defending Brexit. (y)
 
HolgateCorner said:
Forget Starmer, I think the Tories have a lot of work to do just now to be seen as a credible government. It’s a shambles. Johnson is already on his way out (I predict ‘health’ reasons) and by the next election Brexit will be something people argued a bit about a few years back. I think even now just a few months after the December election it will be a major surprise if the Tories manage to somehow scrape a majority at the next election.
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I just can't see Johnson going of his own accord. His whole career has been about getting him in to Downing Street. He won't be willing to let that go quietly.

If Brexit actually is forgotten and old hat by the next election, I just think there'll be some other proxy issue for the tories to use to position themselves against "snowflakes".
 
SuperStu said:
This is hilarious. It's like you have an automatic reflex. Slow down and re-read the thread. You might notice I wasn't defending Brexit. (y)
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No you weren't but you did mention there were Brexit gains. I pointed out I hadn't seen any, only losses. By not being able to elaborate on the gains you imply you don't know any either. Thus I pointed out this was a damning indictment on the electorate that DO still think brexit is a good idea.

As an aside, it always amuses me when people don't answer a question but say "read the thread" and I then have to explain the thread to THEM. makes me giggle.
 
Stu I wouldn’t bother you are literally talking to a brick wall when it comes to Brexit and ST.
 
SuperStu said:
SmallTown I don't think you're seeing my point. It doesn't matter what the gains are. It doesn't even matter if any gains even exist. I'm saying some voters perception is that they have gained something and that they'll be concerned with protecting that gain at the next election. And judging by the electoral events in 2016, 2017 and 2019 they're a larger group than the ones that see Brexit as them losing something.
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SmallTown said:
No you weren't but you did mention there were Brexit gains.
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ST I was replying to Boromart's point that Brexit won't be a consideration at the next general election cause it'll have happened by then. I suppose I could have been clearer, but I was saying I think it will still be an issue because some of the people that support Brexit will feel they've gained something from it, and they won't want a new government to come in and reverse the policy.

Why would I need to elaborate on what exactly Brexit supporters in 2024 will feel like they've gained? It has no bearing on the point I'm making what the specific perceived or actual benefits are.
 
SuperStu said:
ST I was replying to Boromart's point that Brexit won't be a consideration at the next general election cause it'll have happened by then. I suppose I could have been clearer, but I was saying I think it will still be an issue because some of the people that support Brexit will feel they've gained something from it, and they won't want a new government to come in and reverse the policy.

Why would I need to elaborate on what exactly Brexit supporters in 2024 will feel like they've gained? It has no bearing on the point I'm making what the specific perceived or actual benefits are.
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Fair enough. I just like to prove there are no known benefits. I used you to confirm this. Apologies.
 
GazC_MFC said:
You keep drumming the policy drum, but with no general election near by we won’t be getting any, anytime soon

But the Tories proved you just the most popular policy at the time of the election to win
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So you are happy supporting a party without its own policies ?
 
SmallTown said:
I hear that too. You can't be THAT confident in the perceived benefits if you're concerned about sharing them.
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I'm on your side of the fence here small town, but 'gains' like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder. To a rabid few a blue passport is probably enough of a gain to justify it, to some perceived increases in 'control of our borders' will be enough. At the end of the day we won't be able to discern if gains outweigh the negatives until everything that was facilitated through being a member of the EU has a new treaty or system in place. As has been said, people won't change their views, if it is much worse and costs us money, like a travel visa, or delays at borders as we're in the non-EU lane, it will be the fault of 'Europe' being vindictive. Any small benefits will be down to plucky Boris 'hammering out' the best deal for Britain. That said, if the final outcome does lead to a break up of the union, I can't see us getting another socialist government again.
 
Caesium137 said:
I'm on your side of the fence here small town, but 'gains' like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder. To a rabid few a blue passport is probably enough of a gain to justify it, to some perceived increases in 'control of our borders' will be enough. At the end of the day we won't be able to discern if gains outweigh the negatives until everything that was facilitated through being a member of the EU has a new treaty or system in place. As has been said, people won't change their views, if it is much worse and costs us money, like a travel visa, or delays at borders as we're in the non-EU lane, it will be the fault of 'Europe' being vindictive. Any small benefits will be down to plucky Boris 'hammering out' the best deal for Britain. That said, if the final outcome does lead to a break up of the union, I can't see us getting another socialist government again.
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That's the problem with brexit isn't it though? Those that support do so with a blind, unthinking face.
The fact that the fabled blue passport is less useful because it always free travel to fewer countries then the burgundy EU one is a fact.
The fact that we will need to have trade tariffs with EU countries (because we need trade, and no one would have tariff free trade) is also a fact.

Two massive negatives that are actually facts, not feelings, not "eye of the beholder" stuff but stone cold, facts of things that are happening.

I think (apart for the fact we are going to be living in a poorer country, and we have restricted movement) the thing that most upsets me about Brexit is it's like discussing any cult: any fact, any physically real thing can just be ignored on a "feeling". Maybe the EU will allow us to trade "hope and dreams" and "feelings" tariff free?
 
FatCat said:
Surely they have to have some semblance of what they are about rather than just criticising. It didn’t work out that well for the last fella not having a clear policy.
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I thought Kier had made it clear that he wants to get through the crisis first? Surely that's the most important thing right now? Trying to get the government to admit to their failures so we can address them and start saving lives? Then he has 4 years to prepare for an election
 
He's only been in the job 6 weeks and it's hardly been business as usual. We'll see the course he wants to take when things settle down, if and when they do.
 
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