Astra Zeneca vaccine withdrawn

[Andy_W]

Have you ever thought that just maybe a bunch of professional medical experts actually do know a thing or two and that, statistically,some people are just unfortunate?

Other than some very early strains, the vaccines weren't expected to prevent people getting Covid. The idea was to get enough people with enough antibodies to slow it down and reduce hospital admissions - exactly what we had to have lockdowns for prior to the vaccines being made available.

The vast majority of people had a very minor reaction to Covid - sniffles and a bit of a cough. Plenty didn't even know they had it without testing.

If you had a bad reaction then you're in a statistically small group to begin with. The vaccines might have helped or done nothing at all for those people - it's impossible to tell as there's no way to do a simultaneous experiment with two of the same individual - one with and one without the vaccine.

However, we know vaccines work. We know how they work. The Covid vaccine was based on research from other vaccination programmes.

In any normal society we'd be hailing the medical geniuses behind the vaccines rather than creating conspiracy theories and using anecdotal evidence to rubbish them.

Great post

Some people really do not have any grasp whatsoever that the vaccines probably saved the lives of many people they know, either from covid, from overwhelmed healthcare increasing the risk to any other illness or accidents, or the risks associated with what a 12 month lock down would have done. The latter two are probably multiples of risk for younger folk than the covid risk was, but they were still at major risk if they needed any other major healthcare or at risk to the economical damage, nobody avoids that.

The pace at which the vaccines were developed, produced and delivered is up there with the greatest medical, scientific and logistical achievements ever.

Even those who didn't take them owe the people who did a hell of a lot, but they're to naïve to even understand why. Even worse than that, they go one step further to undermine it, make a load of bull**** stories up, or make assumptions from stats which they have zero understanding of.

Still not met one person who regretted taking the vaccines (any of them), and >90% of people I know took at least three of them.

 

[Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants]

Nobody knows the answer to most of these questions. Least of all us.

I never understood at the time (and still don’t) why some people are so profoundly wedded to a particular stance on something they cannot possibly know the answer to.

I have followed (on twitter) some of this and other countries top virologists, immunologists, medical doctors etc. They usually break down studies, data, trials etc into laymans terms so that people like us can understand beyond the headlines the good and bad of the stories.

Some people choose to follow idiots with a public platform, but without knowledge on the matter, but will give their opinion…Russell Brand, Neil Oliver, Bev Turner.

 

[atypical_boro]

I have followed (on twitter) some of this and other countries top virologists, immunologists, medical doctors etc. They usually break down studies, data, trials etc into laymans terms so that people like us can understand beyond the headlines the good and bad of the stories.

Some people choose to follow idiots with a public platform, but without knowledge on the matter, but will give their opinion…Russell Brand, Neil Oliver, Bev Turner.

Of course there is a huge amount of information that backs up covid vaccinations, hence why I had them all myself, you weigh up the risks and make a choice based on information given. But science/the NHS/governments/institutions are all manned by humans, who can and do make mistakes regularly, sometimes of epic proportions. Until humans are incapable of making mistakes, we should try to keep an open mind, in my opinion.

 

[Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants]

Of course there is a huge amount of information that backs up covid vaccinations, hence why I had them all myself, you weigh up the risks and make a choice based on information given. But science/the NHS/governments/institutions are all manned by humans, who can and do make mistakes regularly, sometimes of epic proportions. Until humans are incapable of making mistakes, we should try to keep an open mind, in my opinion.

Thats why vaccine trials have phase 4, it’s why we have the yellow card system, it’s why peer review studies exist (why ivermectin studies fail). AZ problems were picked up by the monitoring systems in place.

 

[atypical_boro]

Thats why vaccine trials have phase 4, it’s why we have the yellow card system, it’s why peer review studies exist (why ivermectin studies fail). AZ problems were picked up by the monitoring systems in place.

Yeah, that's enough for me. But I am not in the game of ridiculing folk who perhaps still want more reassurance (not saying you're doing that).

 

[Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants]

Yeah, that's enough for me. But I am not in the game of ridiculing folk who perhaps still want more reassurance (not saying you're doing that).

I’d say people were looking for excuses not to get it rather than safety reassurances. Its why people listen to Mike Yeadon (not a vaccine expert), Aseem Malhotra (not a vaccine expert) and Claire Craig (certainly not a vaccine expert) but slate people like Vikki Male, Graham Bottley and Pete Hotez who are all experts around the vaccination subject.

 

[atypical_boro]

I’d say people were looking for excuses not to get it rather than safety reassurances. Its why people listen to Mike Yeadon (not a vaccine expert), Aseem Malhotra (not a vaccine expert) and Claire Craig (certainly not a vaccine expert) but slate people like Vikki Male, Graham Bottley and Pete Hotez who are all experts around the vaccination subject.

I guess, but why DO people want excuses? I could only assume its apprehension, rather than sheer laziness. I doubt many people would be lazy about stuff that could genuinely save or prolong their life.

 

[Matt]

It's been a while since I've seen a COVID vaccination debate. What a throwback.

I had one AZ vaccine and never got another vaccination after that and it caused a lot of trouble amongst my family is they tried to pressure me to get it.

As someone who was self employed under a a Limited Company, I was under a lot of financial pressure. I had had a long period of time off work during the first lockdown with no pay or help whatsoever.
I had Covid at the back end of 2020. I was mildly ill but nothing worse than the sniffle and had to isolate for 10 days so had more time off work with no pay despite being well enough to work.

After getting the AZ vaccine, I felt terrible, flu like symptoms for at least a week. I then got COVID 6 weeks later and that was worse still. I was in bed for the best part of 2 weeks which was more time off unpaid. It took me well over 6 months to get my full strength and fitness back.

I decided not to have another vaccine. It had made me feel really ill the first time I'd had it and hadn't done anything to prevent me getting a bad bout of Covid. I didn't want to take the risk of feeling crap again after just starting to recover and potentially have to take more time off unpaid. I also didn't feel like I personally had benefitted from the vaccine.

I accept this was probably selfish of me and if everyone had acted the same way as me then Covid would have been a lot worse both nationally and globally. But at that time I just couldn't afford more time off work and couldn't mentally deal with being that physically ill again as I had felt previously. I was just starting to feel normal again. Like I said, it caused a lot of issues with my parents and my siblings as they tried to pressure me to get it. I hated those days. What an awful time.

The thing that stands out here for me, is that you didn't have the full course of the vaccine (2 jabs were required, with the 2nd maybe being a month later, I think?) and then said you got covid, were ill for 2 weeks and not back to full fitness for 6 months. I wonder what would have happened if you had got the 2nd vaccine 4 weeks after the first? It's a reasonable assumption that you could have avoided that bout of covid (or lessened it's effects) and been back at work fitter, and sooner.

I appreciate it's a difficult choice for people in your position, working for yourself. And it is more than some would do to admit they were probably being selfish.

 

[Muttley]

But science/the NHS/governments/institutions are all manned by humans, who can and do make mistakes regularly, sometimes of epic proportions.

Do you realise who will find out if a Scientist has made a mistake?

Another scientist, not an Anti-vax social media blogger or a vapid gobshight like Russle Brand. Another scientist doing the hard work, the testing and the analysis.

Actually this has reminded me, I need to book my shingles vaccination. Ta.

 

[B_G]

The thing that stands out here for me, is that you didn't have the full course of the vaccine (2 jabs were required, with the 2nd maybe being a month later, I think?) and then said you got covid, were ill for 2 weeks and not back to full fitness for 6 months. I wonder what would have happened if you had got the 2nd vaccine 4 weeks after the first? It's a reasonable assumption that you could have avoided that bout of covid (or lessened it's effects) and been back at work fitter, and sooner.

I appreciate it's a difficult choice for people in your position, working for yourself. And it is more than some would do to admit they were probably being selfish.

I couldn't have had the 2nd course before I got COVID.
It was something like 6 months between the two doses.

I was still feeling like rubbish when I was offered it and I just couldn't face going to get it knowing how much it knocked me the first time I'd had it.

 

[Matt]

I couldn't have had the 2nd course before I got COVID.
It was something like 6 months between the two doses.

I was still feeling like rubbish when I was offered it and I just couldn't face going to get it knowing how much it knocked me the first time I'd had it.

ok fair enough, I thought it was a shorter window

It's weird how people think isn't it, because I think I would have been of the mindset "covid made me feel rotten, don't want to feel like that again so I'm definitely getting my other jab" whereas obviously you had the opposite thought that because the first jab didn't prevent you from feeling bad, you didn't want the second

 

[atypical_boro]

Do you realise who will find out if a Scientist has made a mistake?

Another scientist.

And you've just articulated perfectly why some people were/are apprehensive. Because we're not all scientists, and some people are open minded about the possibilities.

I am not even vaguely suggesting that anti-vax youtubers should be listened to by the way.

 

[Redwurzel]

This was a BBC news story from Feb 2022 stating some side effects with the vaccines, both Pfizer/Modena and AstraZeneca.

Vaccines: What we know about long-term safety now

Despite concerns over Covid vaccines, most side effects occur with hours or weeks of having a jab.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[B_G]

ok fair enough, I thought it was a shorter window

It's weird how people think isn't it, because I think I would have been of the mindset "covid made me feel rotten, don't want to feel like that again so I'm definitely getting my other jab" whereas obviously you had the opposite thought that because the first jab didn't prevent you from feeling bad, you didn't want the second

It wasn't so much the fact the first jab hadn't stopped me getting covid or stopped me feeling rubbish.

It was more that I felt so crap initially when getting the first jab. I got flu like symptoms immediately after getting it for at least a week. I still wasnt 100% and still getting breathless easily. I couldn't exercise for more than 10 mins at a time without having to stop due to coughing so badly. I couldnt get enough sleep. I would sleep 10 hours a night and feel absolutely nackered still. It had felt like such a long time since id felt 100% The last thing I wanted was to go and get something injected into me that was going to set me back again.

 

[DanBoro4499]

And how many millions upon millions around the globe this vaccine saved - remember it was developed for humanity above profit. It gave the world hope.

From a medical point of view, maybe there's somebody on here who can answer.....but how would you actually know if a vaccine has saved somebody's life?

Can people confidently say "the vaccinces saved xxxxxx million lives"? On what basis?

And no, im not anti-vax. I'm just wondering how your statement is gauged.

 

[Scrote]

Nobody knows the answer to most of these questions. Least of all us.

What makes things worse is anyone who has had a negative experience of any vaccine is immediately shot down as being part of a conspiracy theory.

We do know the answers to most of these questions. The science is very accessible and anyone can go and look it up if they really care to.

People sharing anti-vax tropes deserve to be shot down. There is definitely an element of that on this thread.

 

[atypical_boro]

People sharing anti-vax tropes deserve to be shot down.

Shooting down people's opinions doesn't always solve problems though does it? This is exactly how Brexit happened. A lot of people had opinions that were based largely on anecdotes and perceptions rather than economical or scientific expertise. We shot them down, often in humiliating fashion, and the politicians preyed on this division in order to increase their levels of power. It resulted in a series of catastrophic political decisions by the electorate.

 

[Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants]

From a medical point of view, maybe there's somebody on here who can answer.....but how would you actually know if a vaccine has saved somebody's life?

Can people confidently say "the vaccinces saved xxxxxx million lives"? On what basis?

And no, im not anti-vax. I'm just wondering how your statement is gauged.

I think looking at rates of deaths/hospitalisations over time, against rates of death / hospitalisations of unvaxxed (age adjusted) shows the effectiveness against the changing virus strains. It’s not something I could put together but there are people out there who can.

 

[Scrote]

Shooting down people's opinions doesn't always solve problems though does it?

When they've had this long ascertain fact from fiction then any proliferation of the fiction needs shooting down - the fact this didn't happen with Brexit (and a lot of other political areas) is why we're in the position we're in today.

Just look at Houchen.

 

[Nano]

From a medical point of view, maybe there's somebody on here who can answer.....but how would you actually know if a vaccine has saved somebody's life?

Can people confidently say "the vaccinces saved xxxxxx million lives"? On what basis?

And no, im not anti-vax. I'm just wondering how your statement is gauged.

You can't with an individual but you can with statistics and a population. We know what the infection rate of a disease is, we know what the mortality rate is, we can model what the mortality rate would be if we had or didn't have a vaccine and then the difference between the two is the impact.