Well There We Have It, The Easy 'Oven Ready Deal' that Never Was...

SmallTown

Well-known member
The scramble to blame anyone and anything other than themselves is depressingly predictable. Brexiters, this is it. This is what you were told was coming. Own your ****.
Exactly this. Even Brexiteers can see what a cluster flock brexit is going to be, To embarrassed or vane to admit they were wrong, they now have to blame others
 

newusername

Well-known member
The interesting bit in all this is the business leaders I know who have been working on contingency plans with government for the last 18 months, are more confident than they have ever been that there will be a trade deal.
Granted, it is only their view, but up until a few months ago they were pessimistic in the extreme.

I attended an online 'business breakfast' & I would agree that the majority of attendees that need to & have started their contingency planning are absolutely certain there will be a deal, because they see the massive downside & disruption that will follow if there isn't one.

The assumption being that the Govt see it as well & want to avoid it.
 

Centralscrutinizer

Well-known member
I attended an online 'business breakfast' & I would agree that the majority of attendees that need to & have started their contingency planning are absolutely certain there will be a deal, because they see the massive downside & disruption that will follow if there isn't one.

The assumption being that the Govt see it as well & want to avoid it.
Any "deal" we get now will still have a massive downside and disruption. Just not quite as bad as no deal at all.
 

bear66

Well-known member
They will be making concessions at 11pm 31 December. They have massive form in this respect. Its what they do. Not going to work this time I suspect.
Too late for council to convene in an hour. More likely things would roll over till the next few years with one trade deal and dozens of bilateral deals to negotiate (as Canada).
 

Nero

Well-known member
I've almost gone beyond caring now. The whole debacle really does exasperate me. It was frustrating that people couldn't see through Johnson's lies during the referendum and even worse the charlatan has gone on to become PM.

The Tories have hammered the country since 2010 and still people vote for them. They blame Barristers for their failures in criminal justice and millions belief them.

Brexit was always going to be a massive cost for the Country and there's no guarantee anything will improve. There's a good chance society will suffer.

Yet many still vote Tory.
 

HarryVegas

Well-known member
I've almost gone beyond caring now. The whole debacle really does exasperate me. It was frustrating that people couldn't see through Johnson's lies during the referendum and even worse the charlatan has gone on to become PM.

The Tories have hammered the country since 2010 and still people vote for them. They blame Barristers for their failures in criminal justice and millions belief them.

Brexit was always going to be a massive cost for the Country and there's no guarantee anything will improve. There's a good chance society will suffer.

Yet many still vote Tory.
We sadly live in an inherently right-wing country. It runs right through the fabric of England, particularly.
 

festa5

Well-known member
We sadly live in an inherently right-wing country. It runs right through the fabric of England, particularly.

While I agree and think it's always been true, at least in the past there were certain morals and standards people expected from their leaders and people representing them. All politicians "lie" but in the past this was more about bending the truth to fit an agenda. If you were actually caught in an outright lie it was politically damaging. A minor scandal would often see a resignation. Bigger scandals guaranteed it.

Now we have a government who outright lie repeatedly. They don't care. They have no respect for the law. They don't care. They make monumental mistakes on a daily basis it seems and never mind resigning, they don't even apologise for or acknowledge them. More depressingly though a large number of the public don't seem to care. Some bizarrely even seem to admire it.

Maybe I'm wrong but it feels like 30 or 40, maybe even 20 years ago this lot would've been unelectable on their behaviour alone. Half would've resigned in disgrace by now. If not for behaviour then for gross incompetence. Chris Grayling alone should be nowhere near parliament, never mind keep landing senior jobs.

I think the rise of the internet is a significant factor, but it's more than that. How the leaders of the country can carry on like this and yet keep the support of a significant number of people is staggering. It doesn't matter what your politics are. Left, right or centre. If you don't look at this shower with contempt and embarrassment that this is what we've come to there's something wrong with you.
 

HarryVegas

Well-known member
While I agree and think it's always been true, at least in the past there were certain morals and standards people expected from their leaders and people representing them. All politicians "lie" but in the past this was more about bending the truth to fit an agenda. If you were actually caught in an outright lie it was politically damaging. A minor scandal would often see a resignation. Bigger scandals guaranteed it.

Now we have a government who outright lie repeatedly. They don't care. They have no respect for the law. They don't care. They make monumental mistakes on a daily basis it seems and never mind resigning, they don't even apologise for or acknowledge them. More depressingly though a large number of the public don't seem to care. Some bizarrely even seem to admire it.

Maybe I'm wrong but it feels like 30 or 40, maybe even 20 years ago this lot would've been unelectable on their behaviour alone. Half would've resigned in disgrace by now. If not for behaviour then for gross incompetence. Chris Grayling alone should be nowhere near parliament, never mind keep landing senior jobs.

I think the rise of the internet is a significant factor, but it's more than that. How the leaders of the country can carry on like this and yet keep the support of a significant number of people is staggering. It doesn't matter what your politics are. Left, right or centre. If you don't look at this shower with contempt and embarrassment that this is what we've come to there's something wrong with you.
Couldn't agree more. Was talking about this with a friend the other day, who said the problem is that the Tories believe in the concept of 'the un/deserving poor'. Whilst this is true, my real problem with this current shower is that they have gone far beyond that and are currently, in plain view of the public, actively draining the public finances into each others' pockets. We're talking about unimaginable sums of money - not even millions, but billions of pounds. There should be prosecutions for fraud and people should go to prison.
 

Cooper671

Well-known member
I see “Own it” has made yet another appearance. Can you explain how I “own it”. BoroMart said how he would expect someone too so I wonder how the other “own it” commentators want me to “own it”. It seems a popular comment no one ever says what they mean by “own it”
 

Adi_Dem

Well-known member
What do you want leavers to own and what is it we should own. Also do remain Tory voters have something own as well.

Erm........is that a serious question?
I see “Own it” has made yet another appearance. Can you explain how I “own it”. BoroMart said how he would expect someone too so I wonder how the other “own it” commentators want me to “own it”. It seems a popular comment no one ever says what they mean by “own it”

It’s really straightforward. If you voted leave then you were given more than fair warning that what has happened and what continues to happen was a more than likely outcome. If you then compounded that by voting for the current vote leave government either because you liked Boris or because you believed your local MP then you knew or ought to have known the sort of people you were giving power to. In that context, you cannot now blame anyone else, you cannot continue to deny the facts or the consequences of what we are watching unfold and you cannot reasonably or legitimately continue to peddle the mythical benefits of Brexit. You have to accept responsibility and you have to acknowledge reality. You have to own it. Dead simple.
 

Cooper671

Well-known member
Erm........is that a serious question?


It’s really straightforward. If you voted leave then you were given more than fair warning that what has happened and what continues to happen was a more than likely outcome. If you then compounded that by voting for the current vote leave government either because you liked Boris or because you believed your local MP then you knew or ought to have known the sort of people you were giving power to. In that context, you cannot now blame anyone else, you cannot continue to deny the facts or the consequences of what we are watching unfold and you cannot reasonably or legitimately continue to peddle the mythical benefits of Brexit. You have to accept responsibility and you have to acknowledge reality. You have to own it. Dead simple.

Oh dear thats ST in the “own it” gang then. Despite being totally against brexit he voted for his local tory MP.

I can state whatever I like. Unless you can tell me what our future will look like in 15-20 years then I probably cant “own it” fully as per your description (different to BoroMarts though) so it seems “own it” can have different meanings. I voted leave, I voted Tory to deliver it. I dont blame anyone else if that proves ultimately the wrong decision. Its a long term play, not short term. Understand why someone anti brexit would be quick to call it a disaster because you didnt want it in the first place. Ill “own it” in full in 15-20 years if we are in a worst economic position. Not now, not in a year or 3 or 5. When my daughter is an adult then ill see if my decision was correct. Until then... ill have to part “own it” per your definition
 

WeeGord

Well-known member
Maybe the remain thinking should take a hard look at those that represented them , the Labour party that couldn't make their case for the easiest referendum win in history.
As you all (most) say the case for staying in the EU was a no brainer.

Pity you chose those with no brains to make the case.

Never fail to be amazed at the amount of delusional Brexiteers who deflect the blame for this mess on remain voters.

Perhaps you should try blaming the people that voted for this utter mess rather than those who didn’t?
 

Adi_Dem

Well-known member
Oh dear thats ST in the “own it” gang then. Despite being totally against brexit he voted for his local tory MP.

I can state whatever I like. Unless you can tell me what our future will look like in 15-20 years then I probably cant “own it” fully as per your description (different to BoroMarts though) so it seems “own it” can have different meanings. I voted leave, I voted Tory to deliver it. I dont blame anyone else if that proves ultimately the wrong decision. Its a long term play, not short term. Understand why someone anti brexit would be quick to call it a disaster because you didnt want it in the first place. Ill “own it” in full in 15-20 years if we are in a worst economic position. Not now, not in a year or 3 or 5. When my daughter is an adult then ill see if my decision was correct. Until then... ill have to part “own it” per your definition

Ah, so it was a long term project then. A well thought out 15-20 year plan. You can try and kick the **** can down the road as much as you like. You can try and rewrite history as much as you like. You may even be able to kid yourself that what you’re saying is true. I doubt it though. Deep down, you know it. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows that they were conned. That they voted for unicorns that haven’t materialised because they were promised by a bunch of charlatans, chancers and spivs. If you don’t know it then, unfortunately, you are the stereotype and I make no apologies for pointing it out. You’re either lying to yourself or you’re stupid. Take your pick.
 

HundredRoom

Well-known member
Exactly this. Even Brexiteers can see what a cluster flock brexit is going to be, To embarrassed or vane to admit they were wrong, they now have to blame others
So sure aren't you about something that hasn't even started yet.

I cant see what you can see and if I could I would be a very rich man.
 

go-nads!

Well-known member
Maybe the remain thinking should take a hard look at those that represented them , the Labour party that couldn't make their case for the easiest referendum win in history.
As you all (most) say the case for staying in the EU was a no brainer.

Pity you chose those with no brains to make the case.

You are aware that the Conservatives were a remain party?? You are aware that despite having a majority, many Conservative MP’s frustrated Brexit legislation on numerous occasions.

It wasn’t until Johnson got the leadership and staunch remain voters were kicked out of the frame that the Conservatives were 100% Brexit and led with that sole manifesto pledge.

Labour continued to be the voice of reason, they accepted Brexit but in an election pledge advised that they would put the final withdrawal before the public. Grown up politics.

sadly that message either failed to get through or was ignored. You can look at the cynical Tory election campaign, the interference from Russia etc. But, if you voted you are expected to be informed, or abstain.
Many warned what the Tory’s were up to, look at the failures to be interviewed, the hiding in a cupboard. Johnson is a liar, a coward and a puppet. Those who control him are greedy and corrupt, they do not care about you, they despise you for every penny you have. So why did you vote for them?

Its crackers. My only hope that in the middle of the impending disaster, we get real social unrest, the electorate grow a spine and we get electoral reform to stop our democracy being abused in this way.

Blaming Labour for this, F***ing wake up.
 

Adi_Dem

Well-known member
You are aware that the Conservatives were a remain party?? You are aware that despite having a majority, many Conservative MP’s frustrated Brexit legislation on numerous occasions.

It wasn’t until Johnson got the leadership and staunch remain voters were kicked out of the frame that the Conservatives were 100% Brexit and led with that sole manifesto pledge.

Labour continued to be the voice of reason, they accepted Brexit but in an election pledge advised that they would put the final withdrawal before the public. Grown up politics.

sadly that message either failed to get through or was ignored. You can look at the cynical Tory election campaign, the interference from Russia etc. But, if you voted you are expected to be informed, or abstain.
Many warned what the Tory’s were up to, look at the failures to be interviewed, the hiding in a cupboard. Johnson is a liar, a coward and a puppet. Those who control him are greedy and corrupt, they do not care about you, they despise you for every penny you have. So why did you vote for them?

Its crackers. My only hope that in the middle of the impending disaster, we get real social unrest, the electorate grow a spine and we get electoral reform to stop our democracy being abused in this way.

Blaming Labour for this, F***ing wake up.

It has been a feature of Tory rhetoric. They’ve been in power for ten years and yet every problem continues to be a problem they inherited. Look at the trajectory of this country during those ten years. Look at the way they’ve handled the referendum and it’s fall out. Look at the way they’ve managed the pandemic. They keep on showing us who and what they are. At some point the electorate needs to believe them.
 

Centralscrutinizer

Well-known member
So sure aren't you about something that hasn't even started yet.

I cant see what you can see and if I could I would be a very rich man.
It has started. We've left the EU with no trade deal or plan on how to proceed. We've already suffered economic damage, behaved in a way that's trashed our reputation on the world stage and enabled the most catastrophically incompetent government ever.
 
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