Warnock on Boro’s recruitment team

Cloughie wouldn’t have won things without Peter Taylor who, according to Brian, could spot a player. How much did that Forest team cost and what did they win?
 
Stats are useful, but we should not be buying based on stats alone - you don't need scouts if you do it on stats.

The Moneyball philosophy in baseball was based on stats often in contrast to what experienced scouts thought. Mind you baseball is more suited to stats.

What interests me is when you see a player doing well in say Division 1 or 2 and you have to decide if he can step up.

Look at Jordan Rhodes - scored for fun in Division 1 and even in the Championship at times, but no chance in the Premiership. Trevor Senior was the same.

Another key issue is looking at a player at 20 and making a decision if he will progress and if yes how much progression.

You make good points.

Maybe stats are more useful in identifying potential signings that you may overlook otherwise.

You would hope that our scouts are at least familiar with the better players in the lower leagues and the better leagues in Europe.

You would hope that they know what types of players are required to balance the squad, particularly identifying players suitable to how the manager wants to play.

You would also hope the coaching side of the club can look at players, assess their strengths and weaknesses and be able to improve. This is particularly telling with young players. Being able to spot potential and the key attributes are there is a definite skill.

Of course you’re not always going to be right, teams like Man City and Chelsea are able to stack the odds in their favour with numbers.

Taking the above into account though, I’m pretty confident our scouting/recruitment team don’t have the skill to spot potential or identity players needed to fit specific roles.

Either that or the message from the head coach/manager isn’t being relayed properly.

You look at the Monk season, we had Bamford, Stuani and Gestede, we then bought Assombalonga, Fletcher and Braithwaite - letting a forward with the knack of finding the back of the net without being played in his position go for peanuts. I really would love to know what the reasoning was and how the management and recruitment team came to the decisions they did.

Whichever way you look at it, we have wasted tens of millions in recent years for very little return, something needs to change.
 
I'm not overly convinced we signed players on stats. You look at some we've signed and the stats are woeful.

I am not sure who thought signing lucas Nmecha on loan would solve our scoring issues? He scored 4 in 41 at PNE.

I have a feeling the likes of Bola and Browne may have been stat based (Bola was Blackpools player of the year).

It did make me chuckle that someone in full time employment gave NW a list of defenders and he just went 'they can't defend' 😂

To be honest if he finds another Sol Bamber then bravo. He's no VVD but he was class at Cardiff.
 
Recruitment has got to be a combination of different approaches surely? Stats are important but only if the right stats are used for what the manager wants! 1v1s for a defender tells us nothing about how he reads the game, positional strength, leadership etc - can that be gleaned from stats?
Equally, with this being a global game, stats can be used to highlight players that might not be well known or immediately available to watch in person. We have to get the balance right.
 
Be interesting to know who those players are, and where they end up.

Could be that the same people having a go at our recruitment in two years time are saying "our recruitment is ****, why didn't we go for Player X when he was available for a couple of hundred grand or whatever"'

Only time will tell who was right, let's not just assume because Warnock say's they can't defend then they're rubbish.
 
Be interesting to know who those players are, and where they end up.

Could be that the same people having a go at our recruitment in two years time are saying "our recruitment is ****, why didn't we go for Player X when he was available for a couple of hundred grand or whatever"'

Only time will tell who was right, let's not just assume because Warnock say's they can't defend then they're rubbish.

Surely, if that has been happening, that decent players have been identified and they haven’t been signed, it points to additional failures within the club set up.

It’s a complex decision making progress, but if you get it right, you become a well run, successful club. You need joined up thinking, a club from top to bottom singing from the same songbook.

Let’s hope Warnock can at least identify where there have been failures and at least make suggestions of what can be made to improve things so that players like Gestede are never get bought again.
 
Be interesting to know who those players are, and where they end up.

Could be that the same people having a go at our recruitment in two years time are saying "our recruitment is ****, why didn't we go for Player X when he was available for a couple of hundred grand or whatever"'

Only time will tell who was right, let's not just assume because Warnock say's they can't defend then they're rubbish.

In fairness to our recruitment they did identify Maguire and Lindelof before anyone had them pegged as anything like as valuable as they are now.

It's not an exact science and our recruitment has been shambolic of course. But I think it's a bit simplistic to imply our scouts are bumbling idiots. Very easy to point the finger there and they take some measure of responsibility, of course they do, but I think the problem is much wider than that. It's an institutional problem more than about individuals.

I'm very sure Monk and Pulis had a lot of control over the type of player we brought in. Monks agent was involved with some of them. And Pulis very strongly implied they were Monks signings.

Similarly Pulis was given "complete control from top to bottom" according to Gibson.

Someone more senior has to get a grip. Maybe that's what Warnock will do. At its most basic though if someone, whether that's head of recruitment or the manager goes cap in hand to Bauser or Gibson to ask for £7m to spend on a steady championship midfielder, when you already have 4 senior pros in that position but no wingers, someone somewhere should be saying "no".
 
In fairness to our recruitment they did identify Maguire and Lindelof before anyone had them pegged as anything like as valuable as they are now.

I agree with this but...........

There is a huge difference in 'scouting' and 'recruiting' for us it seems. I'm sure we've scouted and selected hundreds of players that would have been great for us, but if the club can't get that deal over the line then it almost becomes a waste of time.

Whilst we should have as wide an overview as possible, the initial scouting should have a realistic pragmatic assessment of whether they would be released by their club at reasonable market value, and would actually want to join at a reasonable wage.

It seems we have a desperation and 'throw money at it' attitude (Saville, Britt) to get some signings, and others never looked realistic (Jesse, Lindelof).

Either way, we've been woeful for almost five years now.
 
The best defenders make it look effortless, usually because they read the game so well, and they don't end up in dangerous 1:1 situations

Gary Pallister springs to mind

And woodgate for me. Despite not being physically the best and training every day he was always under the ball and the right side of his man.
He had a nightmare last season but as a player he is without doubt one of the best defenders I have seen play.
 
I agree with this but...........

There is a huge difference in 'scouting' and 'recruiting' for us it seems. I'm sure we've scouted and selected hundreds of players that would have been great for us, but if the club can't get that deal over the line then it almost becomes a waste of time.

Whilst we should have as wide an overview as possible, the initial scouting should have a realistic pragmatic assessment of whether they would be released by their club at reasonable market value, and would actually want to join at a reasonable wage.

It seems we have a desperation and 'throw money at it' attitude (Saville, Britt) to get some signings, and others never looked realistic (Jesse, Lindelof).

Either way, we've been woeful for almost five years now.

Yes there is that difference of course.

Although I'd say Lindelof and Jese were realistic. By all accounts the deal was almost done with Lindelof and with Jese it was only the player wanting to go back to his hometown club that scuppered that one, everything else was agreed. So yes, not possible in the end but in different circumstances we'd have got them. So not unrealistic to try I don't think. They were reasonable targets at the time.

Also then raises the question as to who's responsibility is it to get deals over the line? Is that the "recruitment team" or is that more say Bauser's territory? Or partly the managers?

One thing I did like about what Warnock said was that if there's no indication we're going to get it done, then we'll move on quickly.

I think Pulis (Bolasie) and Karanka (Jese) were both guilty of wasting time trying to beg players to sign who weren't really interested.
 
He did also go on to explain they have to scout differently at present because they cannot watch the games in person.
Remember Brentford recruitment is very much led on stats.
Remember Brentford do sign quality and often sell for high profit. Play good football. I wouldn’t compare Brentford’s scouting to Gill’s.
 
Yes there is that difference of course.

Although I'd say Lindelof and Jese were realistic. By all accounts the deal was almost done with Lindelof and with Jese it was only the player wanting to go back to his hometown club that scuppered that one, everything else was agreed. So yes, not possible in the end but in different circumstances we'd have got them. So not unrealistic to try I don't think. They were reasonable targets at the time.

Also then raises the question as to who's responsibility is it to get deals over the line? Is that the "recruitment team" or is that more say Bauser's territory? Or partly the managers?

One thing I did like about what Warnock said was that if there's no indication we're going to get it done, then we'll move on quickly.

I think Pulis (Bolasie) and Karanka (Jese) were both guilty of wasting time trying to beg players to sign who weren't really interested.

Getting deals over the line is definitely not the responsibility of the likes of Gill, that's Bauser's territory. I have no idea whtehr or not our scouting team do a good job, as i have no idea if we sign the players that they recommend, or if we ignore it and just buy someone who the manager has identified.
 
Getting deals over the line is definitely not the responsibility of the likes of Gill, that's Bauser's territory. I have no idea whtehr or not our scouting team do a good job, as i have no idea if we sign the players that they recommend, or if we ignore it and just buy someone who the manager has identified.
They mostly certainly don’t do a good job. If they are being ignored by a manager, why even have them? A good recruitment team is priceless. Ours is tragic. Gibson should go through all of Gill’s signings.

Kei Kamara = Clown
..........
 
When I was a kid it seemed that Liverpool would just go round ‘cherry picking good players like Craig Johnstone for 750k. Now, to me at least, selling clubs are a bit more savvy. They know the key players and what they are worth - especially in relation to a tilt at the PL. sure, they’ll eat you have flawed layers for as much as they can get.
Us getting George Saville but not Jed Wallace springs to mind.
The game is harder.....you have to be on your top game to win more than ever before IMHO
 
Warnock clearly thought Aden flint could defend too...as he bought him off us. Shows he isnt always right in his judgement. Would be interested to know the 2 players the scouts recommended and how they get on in future.
 
Actually when we bought Aden Flint I thought, what a great signing. 6 foot 7, ideal Centre Half and scored for fun in the Championship. When he went to Cardiff I thought 6 foot 7, will score for fun at Cardiff. Will somebody ask Neil Warnock... What happened to Aden Flint!!?
 
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