Treading water

Isn't one of the problems most teams have its the need for instant success. Reading the comments on here after a defeat suggest we are as bad as any set of fans. If you want to build for the future you plan for the future. You don't change your manager every year or two. You don't bring in a manager with a different footballing ethos.

You have to be patient and build piece by piece. Give your managers plenty of time. Build a staff so you can promote from within. Retain your staff they are the backbone of the club not the players.

Get everyone pulling in the same direction, Gibson, Warnock, his coaching staff, the recruitment team and the fans.

Accept that every buy is not going to work out. Accept that a promotion may be temporary in the first season and you may yoyo for a few seasons as you improve the squad each season.

Identify when players are coming to the end of their useful life and move them on, regardless of how well they are performing today.

Have a10 year plan, a five year plan and a season by season plan and stick to it.

You don't build a team you build a club.
 
Laughing said:
Isn't one of the problems most teams have its the need for instant success. Reading the comments on here after a defeat suggest we are as bad as any set of fans.
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Broadly, I agree with that. I'm not sure it's instant success that fans want. It's the same at Newcastle. I think most fans are realistic enough to know that you can't take a bunch of misfits and turn them into a good team overnight. But some signs of progress would be good. I'm not sure that anyone can see any progress from (say) the Rotherham defeat to the defeat by Bristol City.

The frustrations for me are the team's errors are always the same ones. Off target shots, crosses hitting either the first man or going out for a throw in on the other side. No threat from corners. Conceding possession from throw ins. I can't imagine what goes on in training. The training sessions are either based on entirely the wrong things or they are totally ineffective.
 
Soutra said:
Broadly, I agree with that. I'm not sure it's instant success that fans want. It's the same at Newcastle. I think most fans are realistic enough to know that you can't take a bunch of misfits and turn them into a good team overnight. But some signs of progress would be good. I'm not sure that anyone can see any progress from (say) the Rotherham defeat to the defeat by Bristol City.

The frustrations for me are the team's errors are always the same ones. Off target shots, crosses hitting either the first man or going out for a throw in on the other side. No threat from corners. Conceding possession from throw ins. I can't imagine what goes on in training. The training sessions are either based on entirely the wrong things or they are totally ineffective.
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That may be true, and Warnock has to shoulder some fo the blame. Let's take a specific example, Akpom. If we couldn't do the due dilligence, don't buy him. Accept that we might not make the play-offs and plan for next season. I expect that he was bought specifically to give us a push into the play-offs. The same with the other signings. Mendez-Laing was a risk that probably didn't need taking, albeit probably a cheap one.

From a fans perspective the errors you point out may be as a result of the players limitation, you wouldn't think so, but in either case progress will not be seen game to game in any meaningful way. Progress is seen season by season. You identify how you want to play and how you ae going to get there. Then you put a recruitment and coaching team in place to execute that plan. The players are secondary to a solid backroom team. Get that right, get the vision right and over time the team looks afterr itself.

Don't sell 6 players in summer, sell one or two and do it for the right reasons, wages, overall cost but more importantly do the playerrs fit into the team structure you way you want to play. Replace those 2 playerrs with well thought out, well researched players who buy in to what you are building. Forget the january transfer window, that is short termism. Don't target promotion, target getting the struictures right. If you do that promotion and success follows. If your goal is promotion, that again is short termism.
 
At this moment in time is treading water necessarily a bad thing? There's probably quite a lot of clubs who'd take a bit of stability. Hard to do much long term planning when you don't know with certainty what's going to happen with fans returning and therefore finances. Making sure you can ride out the storm isn't a terrible position to take.

I also don't think that's all were doing though. There is some, if not long term, then at least medium term planning taking place. Key players being secured on longer term contracts and recruitment being looked at (again). Sounds like Warnock is likely going to be here next year. If so he must genuinely believe we have a chance. Promotion challenge next season will be the aim I'm sure.

The longer term question is what is the plan after Warnock? You need two, one for if we get promoted and one for if we dont. Suppose you also need an emergency plan for any covid setbacks too. You would hope that's what they're doing. Just because we've not heard about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. But of course, our recent history doesn't give much cause for optimism either.
 
We spent appallingly under Monk and pulis - vast sums on fees now lost and on contracts.
Whilst those contracts are in place it was/is very difficult to do anything much but tread water and survive until the detritus has been cleared, especially when a global pandemic strangles all revenue.

We can't see evidence of a long term plan, but that doesn't mean there isn't one, or isn't one being developed, including an overhaul of recruitment and Academy direction.

Positively, I do see the Club learning and have seen much better action re SC's and the way supporters have been treated and communicated with.
I've also been impressed by them not being panicked into paying over the odds again on long term contracts for players who have dubious quality.
Treading water - with Gibson's insurance - is as much as is realistic given the state of our squad and finances right now.
Loans and short term contracts will either prove themselves or go back at no cost.
Assombolonga, Fletcher and Saville can move off and we can recruit the four or five players who will step us up again.
This is an important summer to get a squad with the ability and mentality to go up. The Club desperately needs that and suggestions of a slow measured build up is pie in the sky, as the many variables can't be controlled. You go up as soon as you can in the real world.
 
festa5 said:
At this moment in time is treading water necessarily a bad thing? There's probably quite a lot of clubs who'd take a bit of stability. Hard to do much long term planning when you don't know with certainty what's going to happen with fans returning and therefore finances. Making sure you can ride out the storm isn't a terrible position to take.

I also don't think that's all were doing though. There is some, if not long term, then at least medium term planning taking place. Key players being secured on longer term contracts and recruitment being looked at (again). Sounds like Warnock is likely going to be here next year. If so he must genuinely believe we have a chance. Promotion challenge next season will be the aim I'm sure.

The longer term question is what is the plan after Warnock? You need two, one for if we get promoted and one for if we dont. Suppose you also need an emergency plan for any covid setbacks too. You would hope that's what they're doing. Just because we've not heard about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. But of course, our recent history doesn't give much cause for optimism either.
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Festa, I argued above that you shouldn't plan for promotion but plan for a well structured club with long term goals around staff. Success is a natural byproduct of a well run club.
 
Laughing said:
That may be true, and Warnock has to shoulder some fo the blame. Let's take a specific example, Akpom. If we couldn't do the due dilligence, don't buy him. Accept that we might not make the play-offs and plan for next season. I expect that he was bought specifically to give us a push into the play-offs. The same with the other signings. Mendez-Laing was a risk that probably didn't need taking, albeit probably a cheap one.

From a fans perspective the errors you point out may be as a result of the players limitation, you wouldn't think so, but in either case progress will not be seen game to game in any meaningful way. Progress is seen season by season. You identify how you want to play and how you ae going to get there. Then you put a recruitment and coaching team in place to execute that plan. The players are secondary to a solid backroom team. Get that right, get the vision right and over time the team looks afterr itself.

Don't sell 6 players in summer, sell one or two and do it for the right reasons, wages, overall cost but more importantly do the playerrs fit into the team structure you way you want to play. Replace those 2 playerrs with well thought out, well researched players who buy in to what you are building. Forget the january transfer window, that is short termism. Don't target promotion, target getting the struictures right. If you do that promotion and success follows. If your goal is promotion, that again is short termism.
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This is absolutely what should have happened after relegation. We should have looked for a manager who wanted to use 4231 as plan A (arguably most managers do, so shouldn't have been too hard). We already had a core of players who could play that system and had proven they could play it well enough for promotion.

You then look at the gaps and where improvement was needed. We didn't need to overhaul the squad, just move a few out and bring a few in. Without signing anyone we could have started the season with:

--------------------------Dimi-------------------------
Fabio----------Ayala------------Gibson------Friend
-------------Clayton -------------Forshaw-------------
Traore ---------------Stuani ----------------Downing
-----------------------Bamford---------------------

That's still selling Ramirez and De Roon.

We needed a winger, number 10 and keeper as three priorities and then cover for other positions. Not the wholesale changes we did end up making.
 
Laughing said:
Festa, I argued above that you shouldn't plan for promotion but plan for a well structured club with long term goals around staff. Success is a natural byproduct of a well run club.
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Yeah don't disagree. We've gambled on promotion more than once (Strachen, Monk) and it's set us back years each time. But of course promotion affects your plan as it increases revenue so allows you to do more.
 
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