Tory leadership down to 3 candidates

[Ex Footy Legs]

Those positions of his are obviously not left wing ideals so if you are a left winger you would not want them but there are plenty of people who share that sort of ideology and that is who votes for the Tories.

This bit requires some further scrutiny and debate.
I consider myself a left of centre voter, tax me, but use it wisely, don’t go giving tax breaks to banks and then cut public services to the bone whereby they barely function.
I think the Tories tell people, smaller state and people don’t know what that really means.
The Tories explain it as ; getting value for your money, your taxes yet they’ve decimated public services with 14 years of austerity and Public services that we all rely upon from time to time, are failing and falling apart, literally; but cleverly still trots out the line; SMALLER State ; until our public services become virtually meaningless in our lives and we have to go down the American route of private schools fees, private health, councils with zero powers and business with little regulation to run roughshod over the environment…..

This is the cleverly dream. This is the Tory dream - the Right wingers like Bad Enoch just want to get there really fast and Cleverly wants to tip toe there whilst no-one was watching....sneaky fcuker

If they just spelled that vision out to people they get the same amount of votes as reform, I believe.

They don’t spell this out clearly though because they know it’s a minority of voters who would ultimately want this model…

 

[Ziggy]

Baddenough is a biological weapon.

Jenrick is a political manifestation of the Spanish Inquisition

 

[Nano]

This bit requires some further scrutiny and debate.
I consider myself a left of centre voter, tax me, but use it wisely, don’t go giving tax breaks to banks and then cut public services to the bone whereby they barely function.
I think the Tories tell people, smaller state and people don’t know what that really means.
The Tories explain it as ; getting value for your money, your taxes yet they’ve decimated public services with 14 years of austerity and Public services that we all rely upon from time to time, are failing and falling apart, literally; but cleverly still trots out the line; SMALLER State ; until our public services become virtually meaningless in our lives and we have to go down the American route of private schools fees, private health, councils with zero powers and business with little regulation to run roughshod over the environment…..

This is the cleverly dream. This is the Tory dream - the Right wingers like Bad Enoch just want to get there really fast and Cleverly wants to tip toe there whilst no-one was watching....sneaky fcuker

If they just spelled that vision out to people they get the same amount of votes as reform, I believe.

They don’t spell this out clearly though because they know it’s a minority of voters who would ultimately want this model…

There are plenty of people that would welcome all of that. If you think about it everyone is either a net contributor or a net receiver to public services. All of those net contributors could potentially get a better deal if there was no public services and everything was private. They would pay less tax and then spend that money on private health/education and come out with either a surplus or they could afford better schools and healthcare (or jump queues) so they are getting better value. Not everyone that would be better off would want that but there are also plenty of people that think they will be a net contributor in the future that would also want that.

People are happy with the NHS and school system if they are getting value for money. If you have to wait 12 months or more for an NHS appointment then it doesn't seem like a good deal. Lots of people are paying privately on top of the NHS so they can skip queues. The more that goes on and becomes the norm the more likely more people will support less funding for the NHS so they aren't double paying. The same goes for education.

There are far more people that benefit from a strong public service sector but that doesn't stop people thinking they can do better at spending their money than the government are. You only need to look across the pond to America to see the demographics of people that hate anything remotely socialist even though they'd benefit the most from it. People don't think of the bigger picture. They hear tax going up and assume it is a bad thing because they have less money but most people are net receivers so their small tax increase is dwarfed by large tax increases for wealthier individuals and they will be better off overall. It's easier to sell "lower taxes" as a positive to someone with not a lot of income than "higher taxes but better services".

 

[Rofesleg]

Carrick is 2nd favourite with Bet365

Sheff Utd fans are not happy that Wilder hasn't quickly ruled himself out.
But I suppose they don't need to ask him that.

 

[Ex Footy Legs]

There are plenty of people that would welcome all of that. If you think about it everyone is either a net contributor or a net receiver to public services. All of those net contributors could potentially get a better deal if there was no public services and everything was private. They would pay less tax and then spend that money on private health/education and come out with either a surplus or they could afford better schools and healthcare (or jump queues) so they are getting better value. Not everyone that would be better off would want that but there are also plenty of people that think they will be a net contributor in the future that would also want that.

People are happy with the NHS and school system if they are getting value for money. If you have to wait 12 months or more for an NHS appointment then it doesn't seem like a good deal. Lots of people are paying privately on top of the NHS so they can skip queues. The more that goes on and becomes the norm the more likely more people will support less funding for the NHS so they aren't double paying. The same goes for education.

There are far more people that benefit from a strong public service sector but that doesn't stop people thinking they can do better at spending their money than the government are. You only need to look across the pond to America to see the demographics of people that hate anything remotely socialist even though they'd benefit the most from it. People don't think of the bigger picture. They hear tax going up and assume it is a bad thing because they have less money but most people are net receivers so their small tax increase is dwarfed by large tax increases for wealthier individuals and they will be better off overall. It's easier to sell "lower taxes" as a positive to someone with not a lot of income than "higher taxes but better services".

Good Post -
And there it is - the clash of ideologies but the Tories wont just come out and say so - they have 'done' the NHS in stealthily and doing the same with Education, Care sector.....
14 years of pure ROT but tried like hell to disguise it and/or re-frame it.
As a believer in a just and fair society I see the bigger picture, like you eloquently explain above.

Just look at the social problems of the USA with the drugs, crime and poverty (I wont mention the Guns because it's not really connected - although you could argue that it is connected to the social problems - people carry Guns because of the crime and fear for their lives - a lot of them anyhow)

That's the model that the Tories want for the UK. Its not a society ; its a 'huddled bunch' of 'lost' human beings just surviving.

 

[festa5]

There are plenty of people that would welcome all of that. If you think about it everyone is either a net contributor or a net receiver to public services. All of those net contributors could potentially get a better deal if there was no public services and everything was private. They would pay less tax and then spend that money on private health/education and come out with either a surplus or they could afford better schools and healthcare (or jump queues) so they are getting better value. Not everyone that would be better off would want that but there are also plenty of people that think they will be a net contributor in the future that would also want that.

People are happy with the NHS and school system if they are getting value for money. If you have to wait 12 months or more for an NHS appointment then it doesn't seem like a good deal. Lots of people are paying privately on top of the NHS so they can skip queues. The more that goes on and becomes the norm the more likely more people will support less funding for the NHS so they aren't double paying. The same goes for education.

There are far more people that benefit from a strong public service sector but that doesn't stop people thinking they can do better at spending their money than the government are. You only need to look across the pond to America to see the demographics of people that hate anything remotely socialist even though they'd benefit the most from it. People don't think of the bigger picture. They hear tax going up and assume it is a bad thing because they have less money but most people are net receivers so their small tax increase is dwarfed by large tax increases for wealthier individuals and they will be better off overall. It's easier to sell "lower taxes" as a positive to someone with not a lot of income than "higher taxes but better services".

Yeah, a lot of people think they're net contributors when they aren't.

Even a lot of people who are pretty wealthy often struggle to grasp how the wider benefits to society of strong public services also benefit them through a healthier, more skilled workforce, stronger economy, better infrastructure for their businesses etc (to be fair almost impossible to accurately quantify).

Probably only the super rich who could claim with confidence they're losing out on average. But even then, in a lot of those cases that'd mean ignoring where they and their families had previously benefitted from a strong public sector.

 

[sherlock]

Yeah, a lot of people think they're net contributors when they aren't.

Even a lot of people who are pretty wealthy often struggle to grasp how the wider benefits to society of strong public services also benefit them through a healthier, more skilled workforce, stronger economy, better infrastructure for their businesses etc (to be fair almost impossible to accurately quantify).

Probably only the super rich who could claim with confidence they're losing out on average. But even then, in a lot of those cases that'd mean ignoring where they and their families had previously benefitted from a strong public sector.

People have short memories too.

The cancer treatment I had as a teenager cost around £250,000 (I was curious and asked the consultant!) and that was just for the meds, scans, surgery but didn't include the doctor and nurse time, plus hospital admission costs etc. So probably more like £350,000 - £400,000 in total.

Along with everything else I benefitted from (schooling, general health care, free university tuition etc) there is probably no way I will ever be a net contributor over my lifetime even paying tax at the higher rate.

Lots of people will argue that they don't get much to benefit them now without thinking of it over the long term like this.

 

[festa5]

People have short memories too.

The cancer treatment I had as a teenager cost around £250,000 (I was curious and asked the consultant!) and that was just for the meds, scans, surgery but didn't include the doctor and nurse time, plus hospital admission costs etc. So probably more like £350,000 - £400,000 in total.

Along with everything else I benefitted from (schooling, general health care, free university tuition etc) there is probably no way I will ever be a net contributor over my lifetime even paying tax at the higher rate.

Lots of people will argue that they don't get much to benefit them now without thinking of it over the long term like this.

Exactly. What I was trying to say at the end, but you've spelt it out better

 

[Ex Footy Legs]

"Charismatic" - wonder who that could be.......

The UK has a recently disposed a corrupt government controlled by states and big business, with a new government also controlled by states and big business......with the former party now now lurching dangerously to the right with an idiot about to take charge. The latter being a slightly less sleazy version of it's predecessors.

What a time to be alive in the UK

Come on h m
Give this Labour government some time before you judge them…
Remind yourself about the ultra right wing press jumping on anything they can and magnifying it to the maximum!

 

[h_m_boro]

Come on h m
Give this Labour government some time before you judge them…
Remind yourself about the ultra right wing press jumping on anything they can and magnifying it to the maximum!

I'm trying.....but even pre election victory I was extremely disillusioned with the path the party was taking.

Now in power they have seemingly ramped it up and are becoming puppets to their paymasters.

Yes, I'll give it time......but I'm not expecting much for the common people.

Labour could do something within months to curb the press (Leveson 2) but they won't as they need the cosy relationship. They are facing them, when - if they really wanted - they could redress the power. But sadly the RWM and corporations are more powerful than the government and they must toe the line.

 

[sherlock]

Starmer at least made some noises yesterday about providing local councils with the funding needed to deliver essential services.

We'll see if anything actually comes from it I suppose.

 

[Ex Footy Legs]

I'm trying.....but even pre election victory I was extremely disillusioned with the path the party was taking.

Now in power they have seemingly ramped it up and are becoming puppets to their paymasters.

Yes, I'll give it time......but I'm not expecting much for the common people.

Labour could do something within months to curb the press (Leveson 2) but they won't as they need the cosy relationship. They are facing them, when - if they really wanted - they could redress the power. But sadly the RWM and corporations are more powerful than the government and they must toe the line.

Government need business onside to grow the economy so are trying to strike a difficult balance - i think - after Brexit growing this UK economy is like trying to grow Artichoke's (!) not impossible but difficult though !!!
I know that deep down a labour government is all about it's people at the end of the day but they are taking over a complete $hit show so are trying to find a balance - they've made a few early mistakes and given the keeper a few hospital balls to deal with....so to speak...but have faith...

 

[Ex Footy Legs]

There is some fantastic posts on here about public services and how they benefit everyone - even the rich - indirectly (although a lot of them don't get it - a lot do to be fair)
And it's about that creation of a society where people can crack on and do well - but when they need a helping hand...as a SOCIETY someone is there (the NHS or a doctor or a mental health professional) and we dont just go....'each to their own mate' 'fend for yourself'

 

[jam69]

Badenoch will win.

I heard the choice between her and Jenrick described as 'the woman who would do anything versus the man who would say anything'

Badenoch will spew the same rhetoric as Farage but without any of the charisma and all of the responsibility of having been part of the government that failed so badly - she will last about 3 years and then be replaced by another right wing loon. The Tories need to lose another election or 2 before people will look at them again - by which time a lot of Tory voters will have died given their average age is over 65.

The real threat is that if Labour fail Reform could make massive gains

I dont see the tory membership voting for a person of colour

 

[Ex Footy Legs]

I dont see the tory membership voting for a person of colour

That’s what my Tory brother also said. Jenners it is….
That same membership rejected Sunak over the clueless truss - no doubt about what will happen….

 

[1finny]

Government need business onside to grow the economy so are trying to strike a difficult balance - i think - after Brexit growing this UK economy is like trying to grow Artichoke's (!) not impossible but difficult though !!!
I know that deep down a labour government is all about it's people at the end of the day but they are taking over a complete $hit show so are trying to find a balance - they've made a few early mistakes and given the keeper a few hospital balls to deal with....so to speak...but have faith...

They are making some progress but, for some of us, it is painfully slow.
I get it tho

Loving the new workers rights - sick pay and parental leave from day 1 is huge.
It shouldn’t be - it’s just fair.

 

[EI_Owen]

I’ve just read that it was Grant Shapps who was the mastermind behind James Cleverly’s campaign…what a meeting of minds!

Apparently Shapps is in hot water after messing up the spreadsheet and encouraging Cleverly’s supporters to lend too many votes to Jenrick to stave off Badenoch.

What an absolute $hit$how!

 

[The_Unicorn]

⁴

I’ve just read that it was Grant Shapps who was the mastermind behind James Cleverly’s campaign…what a meeting of minds!

Apparently Shapps is in hot water after messing up the spreadsheet and encouraging Cleverly’s supporters to lend too many votes to Jenrick to stave off Badenoch.

What an absolute $hit$how!

Good job Shapps wasn't in charge of anything important whilst he was in office like, I dunno, defence or something

 

[TeessideCleveland]

Centrist Conservatives refuse to back Badenoch or Jenrick

Tory Reform Group declines to endorse either leadership candidate amid fears lurch to the right could split party

www.theguardian.com

 

[FishofContemplation]

I dont see the tory membership voting for a person of colour

The Conservatives aren’t the height of diversity but they do a sight better than the invariably pale male and stale choices thats all the peoples’ party shamefully manages. It’s historically impossible to be Labour leader with breasts never mind brown skin. The raciest they got was a non-practising jew (a century and a half after the Tories had one).