The Grand Delusion

Uncle_Marbles said:
Get this country back up and running before it is too late. It is becoming increasing clear. Protect the vulnerable, elderly, care homes and morbidly obese, and get this country back up and running NOW, or our children will suffer and will cause many more deaths in the long run..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ons-anaesthetise-reality-economy-tatters.html
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You know I don't usually pay much attention to anything in the mail but I'm finding it really hard to argue against much in that article.

Me and the wife had a zoom call with a few members of the extended family this morning and my father in law who has recently retired made a great point,

"The lockdown measures were brought in to protect the NHS and flatten the curve, but you have people who don't want work to reopen until a vaccine of treatment is found, by then there might not be an NHS to use as people going to work pay for it"
 
Glover_elbow said:
You mean disregard the vulnerable, elderly, care homes and morbidly obese as collateral damage, and get this country back up and running NOW. Thats the change in policy we are embarking on
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Vulnerable and elderly are being disregarded by having lockdown too I'm afraid. People are dying without Coronavirus, but because of lockdown. How many who knows.... but things have to change.

I have an elderly friend who was told he needs an 'urgent' CT scan last Wednesday. However, because of the backlog of 'urgent' scans caused by Coronavirus procedures, he's having to wait until next Tuesday for the scan.

He's gone from being fairly normal (for someone in their 80s), to pretty much seeming like he has full on dementia in 7 weeks. It's been a shocking decline. Super stressful to witness.... (and live with in lockdown)!

When it first started, we were advised by his GP NOT to go to A&E because of the Coronavirus risk. However, given what he's now become (and if it's too late to fix because of the delay (caused by Coronavirus)), dying of Covid-19 wouldn't have been any worse than where he's at now. [In fact he said he wished he could die a couple of weeks ago while he was 'aware' enough to realise how bad he'd got].

The consultant thinks it's either TIAs, a bleed on the brain, a clot on the brain, or a tumour. Not a great list, I agree, but some are treatable a bit.... but usually best treated a.s.a.p... and we're just having to wait.

I'm sure there must be many others in the same predicament.
 
We go back too soon and theres a real risk of a huge rise in infections and deaths in fact i wouldn't be surprised if the VE celebrations haven't set us back
 
Thats absolutely outrageous the government are most definitely trying to bury information. As far as am concerned boris and Hancock have acted deplorably negligent particularly in terms of the elderly in care and cost thousands of lives. Eventually the truth will out and their reputation will be as tarnished in the uk as war monger tony blair. I think starmer will finish boris as a politician i like the measured approach he has taken with his qc background he will take his time and meticulously take him apart as the evidence in these burried reports comes to hand.
 
If only we could protect the vulnerable, however old they are.
If we hadn't suffered years of austerity and didn't have a massive wealth gap and we had a government who'd been prepared and prepared to do what was necessary rather than what would play nicely with their voters then we could be further along towards opening up.
With 30,000 deaths already, plus all the others as an indirect result of the pandemic, any rush to open up will just will just compound those figures. If we'd acted earlier and stronger then opening up would have been easier. All those screaming about the future need to look to the very recent past as anything that happens from now is a result of the choices this nation made once this virus surfaced and started killing people.
 
I never thought I would say this but I am getting to the point where I just don't care enough about the government to even get angry.

This shower have been criminally negligent, they, quite frankly, don't give a **** about you or me. They have no empathy, and genuinely don't care if the common man pays the price, indeed the ultimate price, for their fu(k ups.

They fully expect to emerge from this crisis intact, and believe you and I are stupid enough to swallow any old crap we are fed.

I don't even think they are that bright, or at least not cognizent of how transparent their cover ups are.

I am becoming more and more saddened by how many people are genuinely sufferring through this crisis with little or no responsability taken by the people making the decisions. People are dying and Johnson and his cabinet are claiming they are doing a sterling job under difficult circumstances.

[edit] I could say much the same about the tory shills who come on this board and defend this government!
 
The country faces it's biggest crisis since WW2 and a government priority is to carry on with the Brexit negotiation, rather then pause it and pick it up again when the time is right to do so.
Their focus needs to be on one thing, how the government cares for and protects it's citizens, not to meet some artificial self imposed unnecessary deadline, to please brexiters and political idealism. We need some humility, a a lot of our European counterparts and others from around the world have shown how important and vital they to our country, in health and social care, in our food chain and our transport systems at this time of crisis.
We are all connected and reliant on each other, let's cooperative for the greater good of all rather then divide so a can few prosper while many suffer. For those people who have kept on working in key roles during these extremely difficult times wherever you are from, i salute you and hope, your efforts are suitably rewarded. Thank you.
 
Uncle_Marbles said:
Get this country back up and running before it is too late. It is becoming increasing clear. Protect the vulnerable, elderly, care homes and morbidly obese, and get this country back up and running NOW, or our children will suffer and will cause many more deaths in the long run..
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It is very difficult to protect the elderly and the vulnerable. No country has been able to do this and scientists on opposite sides of the debate (Prof. Giesecke and Prof. Ferguson) very much agree on. As Ferguson pointed out they are members of society who often need the most help, care, and attention and naturally means they have contact with carers who have contact with other patients etc. It is an often trotted out line that we should just protect the vulnerable and let everyone else who is likely to recover without issue get the virus. Nice idea but much more difficult to achieve in practice.

As for the article by Dr John Lee that you link to, I think it worthwhile to point out there are many scientists who would disagree with many of his points. As I scientist myself it is frustrating to see a doctor complaining about decisions being made with a lack of data and then reeling off opinions and criticisms of policy decisions without providing (or referencing) opposing data. He at least acknowledges that Ferguson's model led to the governments 'lockdown' (I use 'lockdown' as it is far looser than a number of countries) which was introduced to prevent an overrun NHS. That in itself would have caused many problems. Yes, the data has been less than ideal and Ferguson acknowledged this but that is/was the available data and that's what you have to work with. I am still yet to see models based on available data which showed healthcare systems would not be overrun with less stringent social distancing in place. If anyone can point me the direction of them I would be very interested. So far I have only seen anecdotal reports/opinions/feeling for experience and statements that the 'fatality rate is a lot lower than first thought'. Well, yes, because those CFR rates can only be based on confirmed cases and even early on we knew there were going to be far more cases than the confirmed cases. Yet this 'less fatal than thought' line gets trotted out by those who have a particular agenda. The serology studies that have been carried out in countries such as the US, Germany, and the Netherlands (and these could be wrong) actually suggests the percentage of people so far infected correlates fairly well with modelling from UK institutions. Those serology studies could be wrong, way more people may have had it that than we currently realise and that would be great, but the data currently doesn't currently support that.

As a scientist myself I it very sad to see a medical Doctor again comparing current deaths from this virus (during a very much ongoing situation where social distancing has pretty much undoubtedly played a part in a reduced in deaths to date) to a 'flu' season which unfolded over many months and is complete and didn't involve social distancing. That is really misleading and I suspect he knows it. People naturally have different opinions on how this pandemic should have been handled by the UK and about the pros/cons of the 'lockdown' in regard to ongoing healthcare. I get that. However, I find it staggering for a medical doctor to compare this to the flu based on available data and clinical reports on the ground. It isn't 'the flu'.
 
Corco65 said:
The country faces it's biggest crisis since WW2 and a government priority is to carry on with the Brexit negotiation, rather then pause it and pick it up again when the time is right to do so.
Their focus needs to be on one thing, how the government cares for and protects it's citizens, not to meet some artificial self imposed unnecessary deadline, to please brexiters and political idealism. We need some humility, a a lot of our European counterparts and others from around the world have shown how important and vital they to our country, in health and social care, in our food chain and our transport systems at this time of crisis.
We are all connected and reliant on each other, let's cooperative for the greater good of all rather then divide so a can few prosper while many suffer. For those people who have kept on working in key roles during these extremely difficult times wherever you are from, i salute you and hope, your efforts are suitably rewarded. Thank you.
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What a good post 👍
 
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