The future for personal transport

SmallTown said:
Isn’t hydrogen. It just isnt

www.hydrogeninsight.com

Two of London's three hydrogen filling stations will close this month due to insufficient demand

Move by ITM joint venture Motive Fuels leaves it with only two H2 pumps in the UK — down from eight last year — as the company refocuses on refuelling trucks
www.hydrogeninsight.com www.hydrogeninsight.com
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Correct. Next gen solid state batteries will see the end of this nonsense and ICE vehicles.

And you won't be getting any hydrogen pumped to your house either, before any suggests an alternate use for hydrogen.
 
I kind of hope the future of alternative transport isn’t EV either in the long term, I hope there is a better alternative to cars but whilst we are using cars there’s no question that EV is the future now. I know why people want hydrogen, because they THINK it’s like the fuel they are used to. And the big oil companies can monopolise hydrogen in a way they can’t the national grid so they will always push it in their quest for obscene profits.

It just isn’t a starter though. It’s too hard to store, to hard to transport, woefully inefficient compared to electric and currently way to bad for the environment
 
thewanderer said:
Correct. Next gen solid state batteries will see the end of this nonsense and ICE vehicles.

And you won't be getting any hydrogen pumped to your house either, before any suggests an alternate use for hydrogen.
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You already are. 20% of the gas pumped into your house is hydrogen.
 
We've got to have a government strong enough to stand up to the fossil fuel industry, radically expand renewables to include all homes, business districts, stadia etc. Improve public transport and lessen the need for personal transport. The technology is there, why not?
 
The only future for personal transport is to not have it. This is an undeniable fact. Regardless of fuel and propulsion system, we cannot just continue to manufacture stuff. We have finite resources.

On the subject of hydrogen. It could be clean to produce, we just choose for it not to be. However it is woefully inefficient even when compared with petrol, which in itself is also inefficient.
 
SmallTown said:
Isn’t hydrogen. It just isnt

www.hydrogeninsight.com

Two of London's three hydrogen filling stations will close this month due to insufficient demand

Move by ITM joint venture Motive Fuels leaves it with only two H2 pumps in the UK — down from eight last year — as the company refocuses on refuelling trucks
www.hydrogeninsight.com www.hydrogeninsight.com
Click to expand...
I wouldn't take that as a sign that hydrogen isn't the future. At the moment the industry is still in its infancy and there are big things planned for Teesside like the Tees Hydrogen Hub which will see the "creation of a set of facilities for the production, storage and distribution of green hydrogen to supply a network of refuelling stations and support operational trials of hydrogen powered vehicles across transport modes and use cases. The facilities also include a a Research & Development (R&D) campus for the creation, sharing and exploitation of knowledge."

There are also at least two companies planning green hydrogen production plants on the Tees.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
I wouldn't take that as a sign that hydrogen isn't the future. At the moment the industry is still in its infancy and there are big things planned for Teesside like the Tees Hydrogen Hub which will see the "creation of a set of facilities for the production, storage and distribution of green hydrogen to supply a network of refuelling stations and support operational trials of hydrogen powered vehicles across transport modes and use cases. The facilities also include a a Research & Development (R&D) campus for the creation, sharing and exploitation of knowledge."

There are also at least two companies planning green hydrogen production plants on the Tees.
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I would say as far as personal transport goes it does. EV are just so much more efficient and established.

I would agree hydrogen could be useful in larger vehicles but it’ll have to be much better for the environment.

The green hydrogen line just makes zero sense if you’re thinking of putting it in EV: you need electricity to make it. So you can just put that straight into the car, rather than losing 50% of its energy converting it to hydrogen when you then lose power converting it back in the fuel cell
 
SmallTown said:
The green hydrogen line just makes zero sense if you’re thinking of putting it in EV: you need electricity to make it. So you can just put that straight into the car, rather than losing 50% of its energy converting it to hydrogen when you then lose power converting it back in the fuel cell
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Green hydrogen plants will use wind power to create the electricity for electrolysis.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Green hydrogen plants will use wind power to create the electricity for electrolysis.
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I know. But, they currently don't.

And my point still stands. If you're using renewable sources to create electricity: why not just put that into the vehicle. Rather than losing 50% of that energy to create hydrogen, and then incurring further losses as the vehicle converts the hydrogen back into electricity? It makes no sense
 
Not looked
SmallTown said:
I know. But, they currently don't.

And my point still stands. If you're using renewable sources to create electricity: why not just put that into the vehicle. Rather than losing 50% of that energy to create hydrogen, and then incurring further losses as the vehicle converts the hydrogen back into electricity? It makes no sense
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Not looked into this but what you say makes sense.
 
SmallTown said:
I know. But, they currently don't.

And my point still stands. If you're using renewable sources to create electricity: why not just put that into the vehicle. Rather than losing 50% of that energy to create hydrogen, and then incurring further losses as the vehicle converts the hydrogen back into electricity? It makes no sense
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I know they currently don't but one day they will. I don't know what the answer is but there are a few things to ponder.
Are Hydrogen fuel cells greener and easier to dispose of than batteries?
Will hydrogen internal combustion engines in future be more efficient than fuel cells or batteries?
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
I know they currently don't but one day they will. I don't know what the answer is but there are a few things to ponder.
Are Hydrogen fuel cells greener and easier to dispose of than batteries?
Will hydrogen internal combustion engines in future be more efficient than fuel cells or batteries?
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The last answer is no.

I'll repeat for the third time because you don't seem to understand. Green hydrogen takes electricity to extract the hydrogen. That electricity can currently go straight into a battery. No matter how good we get at creating hydrogen there are always going to be some losses at that stage.
Hydrogen then needs to be converted BACK into electricity. Again there will always be some losses in this system that aren't there when the electricity gets sent straight to the motor.

That's simple physics.

I think the key point you're missing is that hydrogen is a store of energy, not energy itself. Whereas electricity IS energy. Its always going to be less efficient to convert energy for storage and convert it back. Always. It can't not. Not with how we currently physics to work.

Oh and the batteries don't get disposed of.
 
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