The end?

Liamo said:
It depends on how you interpret it. This article (also from the BBC) suggests that it was more Trump who backed down.
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Not really. They both backed down (as stated in the article) but the timeline is key to the highlighted quote. This is my understanding of what happened:

1) US proposed tariffs
2) Ontario proposed electricity tariff in response
3) US backed off from it's proposed tariffs
4) Ontario were sick of the ******* about so said they will keep their electricity tariff irrespective
5) Trump threw his toys out of the pram and said in that case he would put an extra 25% on titanium and aluminium coming from Canada.
6) Several hours later Ontario backed off from their proposed tariffs
7) As a result Trump backed off from his extra 25%

In a way they each kept upping the ante and eventually Ontario folded first. If Ontario had dropped the electricity tariff after stage 3 the whole thing would have looked a lot different. As it was Ontario kept playing and so Trump doubled down and ended up getting what he wanted as a result.
 
festa5 said:
Are they though?

"The aggressive style produced results within hours"

This is subjective not factual. Who's to say what impact their approach had? Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation.

You could equally say "the Ukraine delegations calm and patient demeanour in the face of aggressive provocation from the US produced results in hours".
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I'd be a Never Trumper if I had a vote in the USA but in defence of Trump's "overturn the chessboard" tactics :

The status quo in Ukraine requires enormous human and economic sacrifice from the Ukranians while we begrudgingly arm them just enough to keep them going but not enough to defeat the invader.
The status quo in Gaza, Samaria and Judea requires enormous human and economic sacrifice from the Palestinians while their leaders pursue their top priority of the destruction of Israel.

The western liberal governments and global institutions understand the complexities of these conflicts , despair at the impossibilty of solutions and entrench the " lesser evil " of the status quo.

The thing to remember about Trump is he has colossal self belief with short attention span and therefore it's impossible for him to feel shame remorse regret ... he just says whatever's in his head. He's not constrained in any way by what other people think of him.
 
Spartan said:
I'd be a Never Trumper if I had a vote in the USA but in defence of Trump's "overturn the chessboard" tactics :

The status quo in Ukraine requires enormous human and economic sacrifice from the Ukranians while we begrudgingly arm them just enough to keep them going but not enough to defeat the invader.
The status quo in Gaza, Samaria and Judea requires enormous human and economic sacrifice from the Palestinians while their leaders pursue their top priority of the destruction of Israel.

The western liberal governments and global institutions understand the complexities of these conflicts , despair at the impossibilty of solutions and entrench the " lesser evil " of the status quo.

The thing to remember about Trump is he has colossal self belief with short attention span and therefore it's impossible for him to feel shame remorse regret ... he just says whatever's in his head. He's not constrained in any way by what other people think of him.
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I'd agree there are some unintentional benefits.

He's forced Europe into action and into taking more accountability. Which probably needed to happen regardless of who POTUS is.

Probably the opposite of what he'd personally have wanted to achieve in some ways, but you can't deny he has at least made something happen!
 
Spartan said:
I'd be a Never Trumper if I had a vote in the USA but in defence of Trump's "overturn the chessboard" tactics :

The status quo in Ukraine requires enormous human and economic sacrifice from the Ukranians while we begrudgingly arm them just enough to keep them going but not enough to defeat the invader.
The status quo in Gaza, Samaria and Judea requires enormous human and economic sacrifice from the Palestinians while their leaders pursue their top priority of the destruction of Israel.

The western liberal governments and global institutions understand the complexities of these conflicts , despair at the impossibilty of solutions and entrench the " lesser evil " of the status quo.

The thing to remember about Trump is he has colossal self belief with short attention span and therefore it's impossible for him to feel shame remorse regret ... he just says whatever's in his head. He's not constrained in any way by what other people think of him.
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Does he have colossal self belief? He seems to me to be the total opposite. He comes across to me as a thin skinned lying bully who sexually assaults women. Do confident people act like that?
 
Spartan said:
I'd be a Never Trumper if I had a vote in the USA but in defence of Trump's "overturn the chessboard" tactics :

The status quo in Ukraine requires enormous human and economic sacrifice from the Ukranians while we begrudgingly arm them just enough to keep them going but not enough to defeat the invader.
The status quo in Gaza, Samaria and Judea requires enormous human and economic sacrifice from the Palestinians while their leaders pursue their top priority of the destruction of Israel.

The western liberal governments and global institutions understand the complexities of these conflicts , despair at the impossibilty of solutions and entrench the " lesser evil " of the status quo.

The thing to remember about Trump is he has colossal self belief with short attention span and therefore it's impossible for him to feel shame remorse regret ... he just says whatever's in his head. He's not constrained in any way by what other people think of him.
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I'd replace 'self belief' with insecure narcissism
 
Frankie Lee said:
Does he have colossal self belief? He seems to me to be the total opposite. He comes across to me as a thin skinned lying bully who sexually assaults women. Do confident people act like that?
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How much sleep do you think he's lost over his personal actions over the years ?
 
borolad259 said:
On Trump, just a snippet, in a conversation the other day, the subject of the intelligence dossier on Trump ... golden showers, Russian Mafia connections and deals, Trump and Epstein, sex with minors and all that stuff .... it exists ... with British intelligence, according to Grand Fromage.
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Well we should use it as a bargaining tool
 
borolad259 said:
On Trump, just a snippet, in a conversation the other day, the subject of the intelligence dossier on Trump ... golden showers, Russian Mafia connections and deals, Trump and Epstein, sex with minors and all that stuff .... it exists ... with British intelligence, according to Grand Fromage.
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Oh, I hope we get to see that. the peepee tape is the stuff of legend.
 
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