"The Brexit Effect: How leaving the EU hit the UK." Financial Times. [V-28:24]

100% my position too, and has been for some time, hence never fully understanding the "deeper integration = bad" line.

If you look at the EU governmental institutions they are mostly governed by pragmatic, rational and highly educated people. "The Grown Ups" if you will. Compare and contrast that with the plethora of screaming lunatics we have running things here and a stark reality presents itself.

Unfortunately there wasn't an option for even closer ties with Europe on the ballot and our country is arguably much worse off for that fact.
True, if anything, the remain campaign kept trotting out that they could make it better by staying in! Sounds ludicrous now thinking about it and seeing what we've done to ourselves since.
 

indeedido

Well-known member
Well, by having a seat at the table you're already in a better position to help shape that future than by not being at said table
This was the only argument that even tempted me to vote Remain.
I just didn’t buy it. For 30 years there has been a clear direction of travel.
Respect to changing man who believes the exact opposite of myself.
What he wants is what I don’t and most.
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
The wealthy and the rich will always find a way to get the best of what they are presented with. What ever ordinary people vote for.

In the early 19th century most wealthy landowners wanted England to remain a green, rural and pleasant land, but when industrialisation came along and could not be stopped, in general they didn't turn their noses up to the rents presented by say the expanding mines, or the large dividends of the iron and steel companies etc. The money they used to entertain themselves in London and Paris and buy nice art, see John Bowes of Bowes Musuem or Hugh Bell's £180,000 (in todays money) arts and craft fireplace for his house near Northallerton.

Those that ran the British Empire a 100 years ago, are probably Merchant Bankers in the City or Barristers and QCs in the Inns of Court now. The less academic running the UK Armed Forces.

Not many outside their own communities care for people living on council estates in (for the wider UK/EU) unknown and forgoten places like Grangetown and Redcar, its not right, but from what I see that is how it is. Futhermore it feels like the gaps in wealth and understanding are getting bigger. Wealth and Income I know this to be true from finanacial data for the last 42 years.
 

m3t4tr0n

Member
This was the only argument that even tempted me to vote Remain.
I just didn’t buy it. For 30 years there has been a clear direction of travel.
Respect to changing man who believes the exact opposite of myself.
What he wants is what I don’t and most.
Oh for sure, I absolutely believe the exact opposite of you. I never believed any of the issues we faced were of the EUs making, they were all and still remain entirely of our own making. My only even glimmer of light now is that at least now we can't blame the EU any more (despite attempts to try) ... at some point we will have to face up to our own issues, whenever that may be. For me the biggest shame is the opportunities denied to our children that many of us (sadly) took for granted. I wouldn't try to argue with you, you have every right to your opinion. I think you're wrong, and you think I am wrong ... history will judge us both.
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
The big success of the EEC/EU for me has been avoiding wars between Germany and France - three times Germany (Prussia) invaded France - 1870, 1914 and 1939 - possibly you could say from the German/Prussia side they were invaded in 1812isg by Napoleon (didn't he build the Brandenburg Gate?) The EU was really started in 1951 when Germany and France agreed to talk rather than fight. The cost of those wars was truly enormous in lives and money.
 

ThePrisoner

Well-known member
The big success of the EEC/EU for me has been avoiding wars between Germany and France - three times Germany (Prussia) invaded France - 1870, 1914 and 1939 - possibly you could say from the German/Prussia side they were invaded in 1812isg by Napoleon (didn't he build the Brandenburg Gate?) The EU was really started in 1951 when Germany and France agreed to talk rather than fight. The cost of those wars was truly enormous in lives and money.
France had been invading the German states for a couple of hundred years before Napoleon.

The original Treaty of Rome was partly intended to bind France and Germany economically and so reduce the possibility of war between them. It has been spectacularly successful in that respect.
 

newyddion

Well-known member
Why were we railroaded into a no deal brexit?
brexit is brexit put, soft brexit, hard brexit.. blah blah blah..
The EFTA countries seem to do all right.. why can’t we just join that?
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
Ref Avoiding tax

The Amazon that UK customers use for UK to UK transactions is registered in Luxembourg to help them reduce paying taxes. We don't know what the tax deal is because it is confidential. Claude Junkers set up in 2003 when he was in control of Luxembourg. Some people including the Guardian have accused governments such as the UK as been soft on Amazon because they want to attract investments from Amazon. I am sure the EU as whole is not happy with this but Junkers had a lot of influence within the EU

Apple agreed a special 2% Corporation tax deal with the ROI. They then use transfer payments around the EU to ensure their European profits are made in the ROI. There was talk of member states clamping down on allowing these transfer payments, but it would mean a clampdown on transfer of free movement of capital within the EU. (a central plank of EU values)

I remember reading VAT fraud was enormous on VAT transfer payments between the UK and some EU States. Businesses were claiming VAT rebates more than once from what I can remember. Some were importing and exporting goods just to claim the VAT rebates.

As said in previous post people like us tend to get screwed whatever happens with the UK membership of European Political, Social and Economic treaties - tax avoidance will happen, and it needs to clamped down as soon as it occurs. Every pound avoided means a pound less for public services.
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
France had been invading the German states for a couple of hundred years before Napoleon.

The original Treaty of Rome was partly intended to bind France and Germany economically and so reduce the possibility of war between them. It has been spectacularly successful in that respect.
Its nice to agree on something :)
 

changingman

Well-known member
View attachment 48244

If you think back. There was never any real coherent reasons given or explanations of how it would improve our lives, apart from what boils down to “Sovrentee Innit” crap

Just look on it as some kind of ‘coup’
It's an interesting point - previously the relationship had almost been sarcastic or comedic. Something to bemuse or laugh at but certainly not (in my opinion) fuelled by the hatred and rage which seemed to rear its head during the vote.

I think British exceptionalism played a big role in my thinking too. Yes, historically as a nation we have been at the forefront of many innovations and progress (some good, some very bad) but this slowed significantly long before the referendum. A quick glance across the Channel would see numerous countries with a better grip of future challenges, how to overcome and the opportunities these presented. It certainly never felt like going it alone would unleash that pioneering spirit again, largely because it had been almost completely worn away by successive governments.

We have historically (and continue to have) a collective over-inflation of our place and importance in the world. Prior to the vote, this didn't really matter (self-delusion at best) but it's being played out on a daily basis since, with real-world consequences.
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
I had lecturer and my tutor (nice guy) when I was completing my PGCE. His specialism was European studies, he absolutely loved France and European Integration. At the time I drove around with a EU sticker I had stuck to my car when most people in the UK could not recognise the flag. His name was Mel.

When anyone discussed the UK and Europe - Mel said "the UK is an island nation and thinks like one" - there are not many island nations in Europe - possibly only 2. One receives large net payments from EEC/EU and whose economy is built on agriculture.
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
I had lecturer and my tutor (nice guy) when I was completing my PGCE. His specialism was European studies, he absolutely loved France and European Integration. At the time I drove around with a EU sticker I had stuck to my car when most people in the UK could not recognise the flag. His name was Mel.

When anyone discussed the UK and Europe - Mel said "the UK is an island nation and thinks like one" - there are not many island nations in Europe - possibly only 2. One receives large net payments from EEC/EU and whose economy is built on agriculture.
Mel doesn't know what an island is! Or has never heard of Cyprus, Malta, Iceland, Ireland...
 
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