Swiss change their minds

[r00fie1]

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Brexit Britain is part of an “arc of instability” that has emerged around the European Union, the bloc’s chairman said on Monday, ranking London’s decision to leave the EU along with threats from Turkey, Russia, Libya and Syria.
“An arc of instability has developed all around us,” European Council President Charles Michel, who chairs EU summits, said in an online address for the Bruegel think-tank.

“In the west, Brexit. ... The result shook up the European Union. This choice of national sovereignty was felt as a failure of European construction,” Michel said.
“The truth is, the British face a dilemma. What model of society do they want??”

Britain left the EU, the world’s largest trading bloc, on Jan. 31 after 47 years of partnership to the huge regret of EU leaders who now insist that London accept the economic consequences of looser ties.
The process of negotiating a new trade relationship and finding Britain’s new place in the world is proving complicated and has revealed divisions within political parties, society and the government itself.
The EU and Britain both said on Monday that a post-Brexit deal was still some way off and differences persisted over putting in place their earlier divorce deal as they began a decisive week of talks in Brussels.

 

[Anton_Berg]

This is what the board will be like if all the clubs go bust.

 

[asredastheycome]

Rank adventurism linking chains with a right wing racist autocratic American political leadership, hell bent on bullying the rest of the world, using torture, bombs and ultimately the final solution -
Why would the rest of Europe want a rogue state like the UK to moor alongside the mainland?
To let it go off again on its political and economic adventurism?
Like a petulant child - The Good Ship UK will limp ashore, clutching her twisted gun turrets and patched up armour. Crippled with shame, embarasment and by shear bluddy-mindedness - we will head back and ask forgiveness.
We wont be well received.
But we dont have anywhere else to moor our ship.

That is quality. Sat in Kusadasi having a last Barcardi chuckling to myself.

Not really sure why I am laughing really. Frightening really.

 

[go-nads!]

More people voted for Parties that were Pro 2nd Referendum than the Pro-Brexit Parties.

Might have done, but the fact remains huge swathes of typically Labour voting constituencies switched blue. Why? Brexit.

it doesn’t matter how you dress it up, Brexit won, it is what the country wanted.

 

[NYboro]

Might have done, but the fact remains huge swathes of typically Labour voting constituencies switched blue. Why? Brexit.

it doesn’t matter how you dress it up, Brexit won, it is what the country wanted.

It really isn't. 57% voted against it.

 

[go-nads!]

It really isn't. 57% voted against it.

It’s impossible to say that, there are a whole myriad or reasons why informed people vote one way or the other. For example, the SNP vote is based largely on an independent Scotland. The traditional sectarian votes in NI.

The fact remains more people voted for the party whose sole election promise was Brexit than any other party.

 

[NYboro]

It’s impossible to say that, there are a whole myriad or reasons why informed people vote one way or the other. For example, the SNP vote is based largely on an independent Scotland. The traditional sectarian votes in NI.

The fact remains more people voted for the party whose sole election promise was Brexit than any other party.

But not all other parties. That's the problem with an undemocratic electoral system.

 

[1finny]

But not all other parties. That's the problem with an undemocratic electoral system.

The beauty of the argunment (I was going to say debate but its not - both sides are absolutely adamant that they are right).
There is enough in the vote to create an argument either way.

The real point is they have created a massive divide which will continue to fester. Already led to further unrest and nastiness on all sides.
The only winners are the politicians and - they have smashed it.

 

[go-nads!]

The beauty of the argunment (I was going to say debate but its not - both sides are absolutely adamant that they are right).
There is enough in the vote to create an argument either way.

The real point is they have created a massive divide which will continue to fester. Already led to further unrest and nastiness on all sides.
The only winners are the politicians and - they have smashed it.

I was going to make this point last night, both sides are entrenched with many remainers unable to move on. I guess it doesn’t help when the overall political landscape is such a mess, the standard of politician and in particular cabinet members so poor and on the back of austerity and generally socially decisive policy.

You can see the mirroring from across the pond. I watched a film yesterday, the public, it was ok but a bit coke lite in the majority of points. But in it, the police guy told a whole set of lies and basically said “ I have now set the narrative for how this thing will go down” - the homeless peacefully taking over a library to keep warm in an arctic winter where they were dying with no shelter places available.

I really don’t know how things can get better, how to stop this subversive manipulation. I try and argue my views with friends and relatives, but it’s so difficult when you have people with entrenched views and the constant media narrative.

 

[1finny]

I was going to make this point last night, both sides are entrenched with many remainers unable to move on. I guess it doesn’t help when the overall political landscape is such a mess, the standard of politician and in particular cabinet members so poor and on the back of austerity and generally socially decisive policy.

You can see the mirroring from across the pond. I watched a film yesterday, the public, it was ok but a bit coke lite in the majority of points. But in it, the police guy told a whole set of lies and basically said “ I have now set the narrative for how this thing will go down” - the homeless peacefully taking over a library to keep warm in an arctic winter where they were dying with no shelter places available.

I really don’t know how things can get better, how to stop this subversive manipulation. I try and argue my views with friends and relatives, but it’s so difficult when you have people with entrenched views and the constant media narrative.

being pedantic (And hopefully you will take this the right way)
all sides are entrenched v ‘many remainers unable to move on‘
And
’arguing my views’ is just worth thinking about. We could all do with listening a whole lot more. It would be a great start to help us all find a bit of compromise, humility and kindness.

 

[go-nads!]

being pedantic (And hopefully you will take this the right way)
all sides are entrenched v ‘many remainers unable to move on‘
And
’arguing my views’ is just worth thinking about. We could all do with listening a whole lot more. It would be a great start to help us all find a bit of compromise, humility and kindness.

Totally agree, but the Brexit lot don’t need to move on, Brexit is taking place, we are leaving. That’s what I was getting at.

I don’t think Brexit is the right call for this country and especially for the union. I didn’t vote (the only other time being. MEP vote which I plain forgot about) as I didn’t know what I was voting about, it was too fudged, in hindsight I should have voted remain, but there we go. But I’ve accepted where we are and that we have to move on.

In arguing my point with others, what I meant was that there were issues other than Brexit that were far more important - NHS, Social Care, Policing, Crime and Punishment, tax evasion by the elite, asset stripping and diversion of public funds to Tory backers, but it fell on deaf ears because the only policy that mattered to most who voted Tory, often betraying their roots, was Brexit.

I couldn’t even get it across that Labour were not opposing Brexit and wanted to renegotiate with the EU before a confirmation vote. They wouldn’t listen that Johnson was originally pro remain, as was the Conservative party. They wouldn’t accept that it was the Tory party that delayed Brexit, that Johnson in fact voted against Brexit motions. It was all Labours fault that Brexit hadn’t happened.

I just want it over now, so that we can focus on the future, get this rabid lot out (hopefully) and try to repair some of the rifts in society that this government have caused. I wasn’t as politically aware as I am now under Blair, but I certainly did not feel the anxiety I do now.

 

[Lefty]

It’s impossible to say that, there are a whole myriad or reasons why informed people vote one way or the other. For example, the SNP vote is based largely on an independent Scotland. The traditional sectarian votes in NI.

The fact remains more people voted for the party whose sole election promise was Brexit than any other party.

It is equally impossible to say most people were in favour of Brexit in late 2019, by the same logic. That only works if you apply different criteria to the vote in order to suit the argument you want to make. I think a case can made made for numerous logical fallacies in this thinking. There are fallacies of defective induction (hasty generalisation AND slothful induction) perhaps? And false dilemma, no true scotsman, maybe even texas sharpshooter, straw man and bandwagon logical fallacies.

That doesn't mean you're wrong, I'm pretty sure most people were sick of it and wanted it over and done with - not that it is - it just means your reasoning doesn't show it, in my opinion.

 

[Lefty]

Might have done, but the fact remains huge swathes of typically Labour voting constituencies switched blue. Why? Brexit.

Labour voting constituencies and Labour voters are not the same thing. The answer is contained in your statement I think, but it isn't just 'brexit' alone, it is also 'constituencies'. In other words the FPTP system for your 'second referendum' is different to the original referendum. The 'second referendum' is in itself a logically fallacious way to settle the issue.

 

[Lefty]

The beauty of the argunment (I was going to say debate but its not - both sides are absolutely adamant that they are right).
There is enough in the vote to create an argument either way.

The real point is they have created a massive divide which will continue to fester. Already led to further unrest and nastiness on all sides.
The only winners are the politicians and - they have smashed it.

You think politicians are the only winners?

Wow, I think they have come out of this worse than anyone. Whereas I used to think they were all pretty intelligent, they just had different morals, priorities and ideologies, I now know most of them are in fact actually incredibly stupid.

 

[Lefty]

You think politicians are the only winners?

Wow, I think they have come out of this worse than anyone. Whereas I used to think they were all pretty intelligent, they just had different morals, priorities and ideologies, I now know most of them are in fact actually incredibly stupid.

I'm also more aware of just how blatantly some of them are prepared to lie. We all used to think 'all politicians lie', but actually I don't think we did. Spin, exaggeration, bluff and bluster, yes, but outright lies I think were rare and were a matter of shame and resignation. That has gone out of the window in the last 5-10 years and it is predominantly Brexiters and Tories that are guilty of this huge shift. I take no pleasure in saying this. It is only a matter of time before it is the norm now, because the conventions which kept our politicians largely in check have been dispensed with without consequence. In fact, with reward. As huge an economic negative as Brexit will have, this is a potentially even bigger one.

 

[go-nads!]

Labour voting constituencies and Labour voters are not the same thing. The answer is contained in your statement I think, but it isn't just 'brexit' alone, it is also 'constituencies'. In other words the FPTP system for your 'second referendum' is different to the original referendum. The 'second referendum' is in itself a logically fallacious way to settle the issue.

which just demonstrates my point. Remain voters need to move on. A second referendum isn’t going to happen. The electorate had the chance at the last election to make a point and they chose not.

Former Labour strongholds across the country voted Conservative because they wanted Brexit. The conservatives ran that election on the one issue so it can’t be anything else.

We can sit and argue the toss about the fairness of FPTP and other forms of voting, but at the moment we have what we have and what we had was a second chance on Brexit which was refused.

Move on - in the most respectful way.

 

[SuperStu]

The Swiss must not realise that having a second referendum is way too confusing for voters or even journalists to fathom. At least that's what was said about Labour's second ref policy.

Tbf you can't just say the tories won the election because of their brexit policy. A lot of their voters really like the austerity deaths, unfair Windrush deportations, the increase in child poverty and selling off state assets on the cheap.

 

[Lefty]

which just demonstrates my point. Remain voters need to move on. A second referendum isn’t going to happen. The electorate had the chance at the last election to make a point and they chose not.

Former Labour strongholds across the country voted Conservative because they wanted Brexit. The conservatives ran that election on the one issue so it can’t be anything else.

We can sit and argue the toss about the fairness of FPTP and other forms of voting, but at the moment we have what we have and what we had was a second chance on Brexit which was refused.

Move on - in the most respectful way.

Any Remainer still fighting to stay in the EU is wasting their time. It's done and dusted and legally set in stone. Even if we wanted to cancel brexit and the EU wanted to cancel brexit, it's legally impossible. There is still time for the transition period to be extended, just, but it's very unlikely. That is something we should do of course, but either Boris will or he won't and the political fall out from the economic consequences of not extending is the only calculation that the Tories will bother with on that. That is a fight for businesses and business sectors, not Remainers. I'm not sure this government is capable of appreciating the consequences, or looking at things dispassionately any more.

That is not the same as giving up the fight to limit the economic damage by staying as close as possible to the SM by putting pressure on our government for the best trade deal, then rejoining EFTA and ultimately being worthy of admission to the full EU once more, assuming the EU is more or less then what it currently is now.

It is important to educate people. They need to understand the damage the people behind Brexit have caused, so the consequences must continue to be highlighted. They need to understand what membership of the EU actually means.

Above all people need to understand their own stupidity, how poor logic and emotion have played such a part in this humiliating episode for the country. It's not just Brexit voters who need a refresher course in critical thinking, it is something we all need to be more aware of as we are all equally as susceptible, especially when it comes to politics, depending on the issue.