The value was determined by an independent valuer. When a company disposes of an asset like that, it has to be independently valued.
Steve Gibson open letter to Derby Administrators
- Thread starter uncle_rico
- Start date
Redlips
Well-known member
Barristers one and two probably provided advice that was unfavourable so advice c was obtained from barrister c a Lionel Hutz(see wiki for his cv).
Cogeur_le_Conq
Well-known member
So what's its value?
Surely this value should be accounted/registered/listed on a publicly accessible forum/register.
I don't know how British limited companies work, but in France, all assets (Inc amortisations etc) need to be declared at the end of a tax year. This data is then accessible to the public (albeit using an online search of company records at a reasonably price).
If I've had declared a computer or desk etc as being a certain price, then I'd have to provide receipts, along with very important VAT chain info.
Just normal policy, I could have been audited at a drop of a hat by the French tax (with police if nessesary) and if they'd noticed a VAT discrepancy due to a multi-million dollar over/under evaluation of any asset, then I wouldn't be sat here writing this.
And rightly so
TeaCider
Well-known member
Now valued at £20m, despite no material change in the stadium.
Funny that.
It was a dodgy valuation, and this only reinforces that.
clay
Well-known member
The increase in value was because Mel was thinking about putting a roof on it. He's now stopped thinking about putting a roof on it, so the value goes back down again.
That's how property values work. My house might look a bit shabby now, but I thought about building an extension made of gold, so now I'm looking for offers over £10m if anyone's interested.
SmogOnTheTees
Well-known member
I'll give you £50 now, £12m when the work is completed.
clay
Well-known member
Cash up front only, I'm afraid. Oh and I forgot to mention that you'll be renting the house back to me at well below market rates.
BoroMart
Well-known member
No such thing as independent where money is involved
BoroMart
Well-known member
In which case if it is sold back to Derby at that value then it MUST be investigated
BoroMart
Well-known member
Unlkely his contract ended and he moved on, his payment schedule would have aligned with his contract.
Will be one or more of:
- David Marshall (Wigan)
- Kamil Jazwiak (Lech Poznan)
- Bobby Duncan (Fiorentina)
- Isaac Hutchinson (Southend)
- Louis Watson (West Ham
- Krystian Bielik (Arsenal)
Probably Bielik who was a big money signing, was he 6mill? So maybe 750k paid every 6 months for length of contract? or possibly 1.5m paid every July but they are late paying it?
BlondzDCFC
Well-known member
I guess it all started with Brian Clough & Don Revie (both ferociously competitive Boro lads) back in the early 70’s.
Cloughie’s DCFC side pipped Don Revie’s dirty Leeds team to the Division One title in 1972 on the final day of the season! So that didn’t go down well. Especially as it consigned Leeds to the 2nd place (runners up) for the third consecutive season. Oh dear.
The two Managers always had a bitter war of words, both in respective local media and on national TV too.
Cloughie was in particular quite scathing in his attacks, branding Leeds & Revie’s style of play as ‘dirty’ and ‘cheating’.
Whenever the two teams played each other, the games would always have an edge to them, turning violent & hostile. This applied to the players on the pitch and the two sets of fans as well.
Then when Revie went on to be the next England Manager, Cloughie replaced him at Leeds Utd for the infamous 44 days in charge in 1974!
Revie subsequently failed as England Manager whereas Cloughie went on to lead the red-dogs down the A52 to two European Cups.
More recently there was the Bielsa ‘Spygate’ incident in 2018 (I think) where, before an upcoming game he sent someone to peep thro the bushes on the main road outside our training ground,watching our team train & possibly tactics too. Lol. Ya couldn’t make it up.
HTH a bit?
uncle_rico
Well-known member
Marshall has just joined QPR hasn’t he? You‘d think that an agreement would need to be settled if a player moves on.
The_Big_Woodowski
Well-known member
I am sure I heard Kierain McGuire on the price of football podcast state that Derby’s administration was a big derby fan, sponsored one of the stands and had a long running friendship with MM.
TeaCider
Well-known member
The Leeds owners were also calling for Derby to be investigated for cheating before their promotion made it irrelevant.
Ravs
Well-known member
My guess is that the #1 candidate(s) on this “Preferred Bidder“ list have current and/or recent connections with MM/Club.
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Scrug
Well-known member
Aye it’s Bielik. They bought him for £10mil and still owe 8.
r00fie1
Well-known member
The Mail are piling in today [Friday 21st January] - knowing bugga all, but its more copy to wipe your back side on.... Its Boro`s fault that Mel Morris screwed Rams Fans, the Club and deliberately cheated the other clubs in the Championship(!) ...........isnt it ?!
Perhaps the most telling sentence in this pulped "article" is the last one (?).........
[r00fie edit - insert]
Now, if the Premier League can prove financial wrongdoing where UEFA failed, and if Derby end up responsible for Middlesbrough’s continued presence in the Championship, and Wycombe’s return to League One, who might come to claim Manchester City’s titles in 2011-12 or 2013-14? And won’t that be a delight; the same asterisk- ridden roll of honour that distinguishes Italian football?
Derby broke the rules, we know that. Yet nobody can argue they have not been punished. They have had 21 points deducted and stand on the brink of extinction. At what point is enough enough?
Earlier this week the EFL issued a statement explaining their stance on Derby. It ran to 2,058 words and included answers to such grave enquiries as: ‘Does the EFL have a vendetta against Derby County?’
‘The EFL has no vendetta against any of its member clubs,’ it was earnestly explained. To which it might be argued that if you’ve got to clarify, as a nurturing administrative body, that you are not engaged in what can be defined as anything from ‘a prolonged and bitter quarrel or campaign’ to ‘a blood feud’ with one of your founder member clubs, you might want to look at your own processes. Equally, nothing shrieks top governance like an important statement being released at 9.31pm on a Monday.
Maybe this is football’s future. Sue your way to success. Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby.
Perhaps the most telling sentence in this pulped "article" is the last one (?).........
"Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby."
[r00fie edit - insert]
MARTIN SAMUEL: Lawsuits of Derby County are based on fantasy seasons
CHIEF SPORTS WRITER: Without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Incredibly, the EFL's main involvement was to strike a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them.
www.dailymail.co.uk
MARTIN SAMUEL: Lawsuits of Derby County are based on fantasy seasons
CHIEF SPORTS WRITER: Without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Incredibly, the EFL's main involvement was to strike a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them.
MARTIN SAMUEL: Derby are on the brink of extinction and had 21 points deducted - isn’t that enough now? Middlesbrough and Wycombe lawsuits are based on playing fantasy football
What stopped Middlesbrough becoming a Premier League club at the end of the 2018-19 season? Derby, apparently.
Not the six straight games they lost between March 9 and April 6. Not taking one point from a possible 21 at a crucial stage in the season. Not losing home an away to Nottingham Forest who finished ninth. Not losing at home to Bristol City (eighth), Sheffield Wednesday (12th) or Preston (14th).
No, it was all down to Derby, whose cheating of the EFL’s financial fair play rules — the ambition tax, as it should be known — meant that they claimed sixth place by one point from Middlesbrough, who came seventh, therefore missing out on the play-offs, which they no doubt would have won.
Middlesbrough just missed out on a place in the Championship play-offs to Derby in 2019
Derby County are on the brink of falling into liquidation within the next few days
Not the six straight games they lost between March 9 and April 6. Not taking one point from a possible 21 at a crucial stage in the season. Not losing home an away to Nottingham Forest who finished ninth. Not losing at home to Bristol City (eighth), Sheffield Wednesday (12th) or Preston (14th).
No, it was all down to Derby, whose cheating of the EFL’s financial fair play rules — the ambition tax, as it should be known — meant that they claimed sixth place by one point from Middlesbrough, who came seventh, therefore missing out on the play-offs, which they no doubt would have won.
Middlesbrough just missed out on a place in the Championship play-offs to Derby in 2019
Derby County are on the brink of falling into liquidation within the next few days
Victory must be presumed if Middlesbrough’s case against them is to be worth anywhere near the £40million compensation widely reported. A failed play-off campaign accrues nowhere near that. Forbes do not breathlessly discuss the fortune from merely getting into the play-offs.
It is winning that is football’s equivalent of Willy Wonka’s golden ticket. For Derby to owe Middlesbrough any figure worth having, it is the Premier League they must have been denied, not the opportunity to slump forlornly on the Wembley pitch while another team gallivants with joy.
For Middlesbrough’s case to succeed, then, certain assumptions must be made. The first is that they would have done something over two legs that they hadn’t managed all season: namely beat Leeds. If Middlesbrough had taken Derby’s spot their play-off semi-final opponents would have been Leeds, who finished third, nine points ahead. And Middlesbrough’s results against Marcelo Bielsa’s side that season were a 0-0 draw at Elland Road, and 1-1 at home. So they didn’t lose, but nor did they win.
It is a leap of faith that they would have progressed in what is essentially a cup tie. The clubs who eliminated Middlesbrough from the domestic cups that season were Burton Albion and Newport County. Weakened teams, naturally, Middlesbrough made six changes for the Burton game, five for Newport, but we’re playing fantasy football here, remember. Everything counts, everything doesn’t. It’s all imagination.
So, having beaten Leeds — who, by the way, defeated Middlesbrough home and away the following season, 5-0 on aggregate — only Aston Villa stood between Middlesbrough and the Premier League. And it’s a good job these meetings are taking place in the realms of the unknown because here on earth when Villa played Middlesbrough that season they won 3-0, both home and away.
The league table, and results, suggest Villa were a much better team than Middlesbrough at the time. We can never know what might have happened in a third meeting, which will be Middlesbrough’s case; but we could make a calculated guess; certainly if the very future of Derby depends on it.
Leeds United defeated Middlesbrough home and away during the 2019-20 season
And it does. The club is looking at potential liquidation and any sale is being complicated by lawsuits from Middlesbrough and, incredibly, Wycombe Wanderers — the lucky losers of the pandemic. Wycombe also claim that their season, 2020-21, was the work of another club, and they would have maintained Championship status were it not for Derby’s cheating. This ignores their failure to win a match until October 31, or record more than two wins before December 29.
Equally, Wycombe only arrived in the Championship by an arbitrary calculation that defies all reason, the great beneficiaries of 3.7 points for a win.
In 2020, when the EFL curtailed the League One season due to the pandemic, they also decided to maintain promotion and relegation. But with no matches being played, they turned to the realms of fantasy. League positions would be settled on points per game. The total number of points for each club would be divided by the games they had played, and used to make a calculation across 46 matches.
Using PPG, Wycombe, who had a game in hand, jumped from eighth to third, based on 1.73 points per game. Yet their game in hand was away at top of the table Coventry, who were averaging 1.97 points per game. That made the imaginary Coventry versus Wycombe a 3.7-point match. Yet when Wycombe’s promotion rivals visited Coventry and played a real game with real footballers, they could only receive three points, maximum.
Along with Middlesbrough, Wycombe Wanderers are filing lawsuits against Derby
One might think, then, that in the circumstances Wycombe would consider themselves lucky to get a crack at the Championship and accept their fate — just as the teams they leapfrogged in 2020 accepted theirs. But no. Wycombe have a grand sense of entitlement and think they went down because Derby cheated, not because they were over-promoted by an EFL whim, so want paying out, too.
Interestingly, if League One was curtailed now and PPG enforced, Wycombe, who are top, would be overtaken by second-placed Wigan and fourth-placed Rotherham and demoted to the play-offs. Fascinating to hear their thoughts if that happened.
These lawsuits matter because, as specious as they may appear, if successful they could count as football debts, requiring priority repayment. Quantuma, Derby’s administrators, fear if that were the case, the value of the settlement would be almost as big as the entire value of the club.
No buyer is prepared to move until this is resolved. And without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Where are the EFL in this? Incredibly, their main involvement is alleged to be a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them over failure to regulate Derby efficiently. This may actually have paved the way for Middlesbrough to sue Derby instead.
Of course Middlesbrough and Wycombe are also emboldened in their mission to prove a football club is not responsible for its results or league position by the precedent set when Sheffield United sued West Ham.
Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation as they seek a new buyer
Lord Griffiths ruled that Sheffield United did not go down because they scored fewer goals away from home, or lost more away games than any other team in the Premier League in 2006-07, and they didn’t go down because they failed to avoid defeat by Wigan on the final day of the season.
Winning just two games before November 28 was incidental as was a run of two wins, two draws and seven defeats in their last 11 matches, eight points from 33. No, Griffiths decided, Sheffield United were relegated because West Ham hid paperwork regarding Carlos Tevez. West Ham paid compensation of £10m, which Sheffield United invested wisely on falling through another division.
So here we are. One imagines football knows Griffiths made a rogue decision because in 14 years nobody has sought to use its precedent. Until now. So this isn’t merely a little squabble between faraway clubs of which we know nothing. If Middlesbrough and Wycombe are allowed to replay entire seasons as fantasy, one day we could lose some of English football’s most iconic moments, such as Sergio Aguero’s title-winning goal. Bird & Bird, an international law firm, are currently revisiting all the historic FFP claims against Manchester City, at the request of the Premier League, under pressure from rival clubs.
We know the end game: to clip City’s wings, beneath the guise of preventing related-party sponsorships at Newcastle. In truth, few are greatly worried about Newcastle for now — they might not even be in the Premier League next season — but City are a proven threat.
Middlesbrough owner Steve Gibson (centre) is taking legal action against Derby CountyIt is winning that is football’s equivalent of Willy Wonka’s golden ticket. For Derby to owe Middlesbrough any figure worth having, it is the Premier League they must have been denied, not the opportunity to slump forlornly on the Wembley pitch while another team gallivants with joy.
For Middlesbrough’s case to succeed, then, certain assumptions must be made. The first is that they would have done something over two legs that they hadn’t managed all season: namely beat Leeds. If Middlesbrough had taken Derby’s spot their play-off semi-final opponents would have been Leeds, who finished third, nine points ahead. And Middlesbrough’s results against Marcelo Bielsa’s side that season were a 0-0 draw at Elland Road, and 1-1 at home. So they didn’t lose, but nor did they win.
It is a leap of faith that they would have progressed in what is essentially a cup tie. The clubs who eliminated Middlesbrough from the domestic cups that season were Burton Albion and Newport County. Weakened teams, naturally, Middlesbrough made six changes for the Burton game, five for Newport, but we’re playing fantasy football here, remember. Everything counts, everything doesn’t. It’s all imagination.
So, having beaten Leeds — who, by the way, defeated Middlesbrough home and away the following season, 5-0 on aggregate — only Aston Villa stood between Middlesbrough and the Premier League. And it’s a good job these meetings are taking place in the realms of the unknown because here on earth when Villa played Middlesbrough that season they won 3-0, both home and away.
The league table, and results, suggest Villa were a much better team than Middlesbrough at the time. We can never know what might have happened in a third meeting, which will be Middlesbrough’s case; but we could make a calculated guess; certainly if the very future of Derby depends on it.
Leeds United defeated Middlesbrough home and away during the 2019-20 season
And it does. The club is looking at potential liquidation and any sale is being complicated by lawsuits from Middlesbrough and, incredibly, Wycombe Wanderers — the lucky losers of the pandemic. Wycombe also claim that their season, 2020-21, was the work of another club, and they would have maintained Championship status were it not for Derby’s cheating. This ignores their failure to win a match until October 31, or record more than two wins before December 29.
Equally, Wycombe only arrived in the Championship by an arbitrary calculation that defies all reason, the great beneficiaries of 3.7 points for a win.
In 2020, when the EFL curtailed the League One season due to the pandemic, they also decided to maintain promotion and relegation. But with no matches being played, they turned to the realms of fantasy. League positions would be settled on points per game. The total number of points for each club would be divided by the games they had played, and used to make a calculation across 46 matches.
Using PPG, Wycombe, who had a game in hand, jumped from eighth to third, based on 1.73 points per game. Yet their game in hand was away at top of the table Coventry, who were averaging 1.97 points per game. That made the imaginary Coventry versus Wycombe a 3.7-point match. Yet when Wycombe’s promotion rivals visited Coventry and played a real game with real footballers, they could only receive three points, maximum.
Along with Middlesbrough, Wycombe Wanderers are filing lawsuits against Derby
One might think, then, that in the circumstances Wycombe would consider themselves lucky to get a crack at the Championship and accept their fate — just as the teams they leapfrogged in 2020 accepted theirs. But no. Wycombe have a grand sense of entitlement and think they went down because Derby cheated, not because they were over-promoted by an EFL whim, so want paying out, too.
Interestingly, if League One was curtailed now and PPG enforced, Wycombe, who are top, would be overtaken by second-placed Wigan and fourth-placed Rotherham and demoted to the play-offs. Fascinating to hear their thoughts if that happened.
These lawsuits matter because, as specious as they may appear, if successful they could count as football debts, requiring priority repayment. Quantuma, Derby’s administrators, fear if that were the case, the value of the settlement would be almost as big as the entire value of the club.
No buyer is prepared to move until this is resolved. And without a saviour Derby could be just a week from liquidation. Where are the EFL in this? Incredibly, their main involvement is alleged to be a deal with Middlesbrough to stop Steve Gibson suing them over failure to regulate Derby efficiently. This may actually have paved the way for Middlesbrough to sue Derby instead.
Of course Middlesbrough and Wycombe are also emboldened in their mission to prove a football club is not responsible for its results or league position by the precedent set when Sheffield United sued West Ham.
Derby County are just days away from potential liquidation as they seek a new buyer
Lord Griffiths ruled that Sheffield United did not go down because they scored fewer goals away from home, or lost more away games than any other team in the Premier League in 2006-07, and they didn’t go down because they failed to avoid defeat by Wigan on the final day of the season.
Winning just two games before November 28 was incidental as was a run of two wins, two draws and seven defeats in their last 11 matches, eight points from 33. No, Griffiths decided, Sheffield United were relegated because West Ham hid paperwork regarding Carlos Tevez. West Ham paid compensation of £10m, which Sheffield United invested wisely on falling through another division.
So here we are. One imagines football knows Griffiths made a rogue decision because in 14 years nobody has sought to use its precedent. Until now. So this isn’t merely a little squabble between faraway clubs of which we know nothing. If Middlesbrough and Wycombe are allowed to replay entire seasons as fantasy, one day we could lose some of English football’s most iconic moments, such as Sergio Aguero’s title-winning goal. Bird & Bird, an international law firm, are currently revisiting all the historic FFP claims against Manchester City, at the request of the Premier League, under pressure from rival clubs.
We know the end game: to clip City’s wings, beneath the guise of preventing related-party sponsorships at Newcastle. In truth, few are greatly worried about Newcastle for now — they might not even be in the Premier League next season — but City are a proven threat.
Now, if the Premier League can prove financial wrongdoing where UEFA failed, and if Derby end up responsible for Middlesbrough’s continued presence in the Championship, and Wycombe’s return to League One, who might come to claim Manchester City’s titles in 2011-12 or 2013-14? And won’t that be a delight; the same asterisk- ridden roll of honour that distinguishes Italian football?
Derby broke the rules, we know that. Yet nobody can argue they have not been punished. They have had 21 points deducted and stand on the brink of extinction. At what point is enough enough?
Earlier this week the EFL issued a statement explaining their stance on Derby. It ran to 2,058 words and included answers to such grave enquiries as: ‘Does the EFL have a vendetta against Derby County?’
‘The EFL has no vendetta against any of its member clubs,’ it was earnestly explained. To which it might be argued that if you’ve got to clarify, as a nurturing administrative body, that you are not engaged in what can be defined as anything from ‘a prolonged and bitter quarrel or campaign’ to ‘a blood feud’ with one of your founder member clubs, you might want to look at your own processes. Equally, nothing shrieks top governance like an important statement being released at 9.31pm on a Monday.
Maybe this is football’s future. Sue your way to success. Of course, the EFL should have addressed it long ago; but were too busy saving their own skin to save Derby.
BoroMart
Well-known member
that muppet clearly believes cheating your way to success is better alternative, but I'm sure he's is a west ham fan so what do you expect
Zoophonic
Well-known member
Yes my guess is the bidders have agreed to pay the outstanding HMRC arrears as part of a takeover but cant put pen to paper on the agreement until the two law suits are also aldo dealt with. The Administrators probably cant disclose the nature of the potential buyers bids so possibly wont be able to answer in full the questions posed by SG's open letter in particular how the HMRC debt is being cleared. Indeed what a mess.