MolteniArcore
Well-known member
Which was reinforced by the words and actions of Labour MPs
Irrelevant really. The people I am talking to have no idea about that, or care. They just wouldn't vote for Labour with JC in it.
Which was reinforced by the words and actions of Labour MPs
Putting everything else to one side how do you think Labour would have done if they had just said we will get Brexit done like Johnson did?Brexit was the be all snd end all of the 2019 election and the time in between the right had to concoct a plan to undermine the party finally stumbling on the anti semitism lie which the very worst of the party used and continue to use to keep the status quo.
Shameful really as it’s taking all meaning out of the word, used at a local level to throw at those who simply supported a free NHS!
History will look back over these recent years and the truth will be told. I can’t imagine what state we will be in when the penny finally drops.
In my humble opinion the Labour Party needs to run on a Pro Democracy ticket which has been it’s biggest weakness in recent years.
Work towards Keir Starmer strengths.. pointing the finger and forensically dismantling the opposition, surely he should be able to do that. This one of the lads Tory boy light schtick is no working at all.
• Proportional Representation, every vote should count, put power back into the hands of the people.
• Stop MPs from taking paid second jobs, with limited exemptions to maintain professional registrations.
• Require all MPs, Lords and parliamentary candidates to be resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in Britain for tax.
• Put trust back into politics by giving constituents the right to sack corrupt MPs
• Abolish the House of Lords, replanning it with a smaller democratically elected 2nd house.
Pretty easy targets to select and pick off here. Johnson, Sunak, Hancock.. should be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Jeremy Corbyn and The Socialist Campaign Group should cross the floor and join the Green Party.
You had the left in power, they lost the last two elections, after the Tories had also won the previous two (and should have been there for the taking), the centre isn't the problem, look in the mirror. You need to be realistic to the population, rather than pretend the population want's a leader like JC, as I can assure you it doesn't, as proven.The press for once acknowledging the purge by Starmer and the move to the right. They've known all along. But the question is how many votes does Starmer lose? I don't know; but hopefully if Labour do lose the next election the clip will show that it is Starmer who has purged and told them to leave through the door. Corbyn is just a part of this story
Andy, Starmer is for being outside the SM/CU. You really need to wake up and stop this 12d chess stuff
Pretty much every single person I know from my forces days (90% have been out for 10-15 years plus) voted against Corbyn, they didn't give a toss where that vote went, as long as it didn't go to him. They all saw the polar opposite of that to be the Tories, so that's where they went. During the referendum and in the lead in to the 2019 election they were all sharing anti-Corbyn posts on facebook. He really riled up a lot of people for some reason. To be fair mind, looking back, I think most of them were racist, and they (wrongly) associated the left with giving money to foreigners for nothing, and getting nothing in return.A lot of people I speak to say Corbyn was a reason not to vote Labour. It might free them up to do so now he is gone from the party.
That article was 3 years ago roofie1. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. The leopard has changed it spots since then. 3 years ago I had a little faith in Starmer then but that faith has well and truly dissipated over the last couple of years. I say that as a person who helped vote him into the position he is now.Owen Jones is just a nodding dog and a hypocrite.
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I think Labour would have cleaned up with get brexit done, Corbyn had been anti Brexit his whole career up to that point and would have been more trusted to deliver over a formerly pro Europe Boris Johnson. The case could have been made for a soft brexit and both sides of leave/remain could have accepted that.Putting everything else to one side how do you think Labour would have done if they had just said we will get Brexit done like Johnson did?
I’m not sure myself, I don’t think the campaign was anywhere near as good as 2017.
It’s not irrelevant at the trust has gone. Those folks who wouldn’t vote for Labour with JC in it.. do they rate Starmer as a credible alternative to Sunak. Will they vote for a party with Dianne Abbot in it? The people I speak to are very much of the opinion that Labour is shyte. So either vote Conservative as at least they get things done or will not be voting for another Party as they feel so deeply betrayed by Labour over a number of issues.. but mainly Brexit and Corbyn.Irrelevant really. The people I am talking to have no idea about that, or care. They just wouldn't vote for Labour with JC in it.
Its not about the article - its pointing out the hypocracy of the chameleon Owen Jones.That article was 3 years ago roofie1. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. The leopard has changed it spots since then. 3 years ago I had a little faith in Starmer then but that faith has well and truly dissipated over the last couple of years. I say that as a person who helped vote him into the position he is now.
‘The Hero Voters’ - folks want to vote for a leader and Keir Starmer is not that. He has a complete lack of awareness skin to Jo Swanson and combined with that he is a complete and utter wet wipe.. he makes Ed Miliband look like a tough guy! He’s fake and weak and everyone can see it.. no point lying to ourselves. He is not going to make the cut.Interesting take in the guardian that explains why Starmer/labour are doing what they're doing.
I'm not an expert by any stretch but I think there's probably a lot of truth to it, if so isn't it depressing that the country is basically held in thrall to a minority of xenophobes?
Our system is ****ed.
Red wall Brexiters will be the ‘hero voters’ of the next election. The rest of us are just walk-on players | Rafael Behr
British politics is bent out of shape to accommodate a narrow set of views clustered to one side of a partisan divide, says Guardian columnist Rafael Behrwww.theguardian.com
It's more depressing that people still think that people voted leave just because they are xenophobes.I'm not an expert by any stretch but I think there's probably a lot of truth to it, if so isn't it depressing that the country is basically held in thrall to a minority of xenophobes?
It's more depressing that people still think that people voted leave just because they are xenophobes.
People that voted leave but didn't vote labour in 2019 because labour wanted to remain will have been a big proportion of people that defected. I personally know many people that voted leave that had all sorts of reasons for leaving and aren't racist/xenophobic/stupid or whatever other insult you are still throwing their way.
Opposition to immigration is not necessarily xenophobia. Some people oppose immigration because of labour market competition and a downward effect on their wages. It has little to do with the innate 'foreignness' of workers. Of course, some people are out-and-out racists, but not everyone who wants restrictions on free movement is a racist.Not everyone who voted for brexit is a xenophobe but it played a significant part in the result. To deny that is delusional. Every survey shows the most important issue to brexiters was immigration. A fear of foreigners (stoked by the likes of Farage) was absolutely key to the result. I know there were other reasons, but that was the Biggie.
I know it's an uncomfortable truth for some, but tough. It's not like it wasn't highlighted very clearly at the time.
The other stuff you've just put words into my mouth.
100%. I'm opposed to uncontrolled immigration (as is everyone, they just don't seem to be capable of admitting it since Brexit). Uncontrolled unskilled immigration causes the major negatives of immigration to only apply to the lowest end of the labour market (wage stagnation due to labour supply and therefore competition for jobs). The rest of us benefit because businesses keep costs down so we get cheap goods and services but I don't think the poorest people in society should be subsidising the rest of us so we can have cheap stuff. People that earn less money also tend to disproportionately consume public services (school, health, police, social work, housing, benefits etc) so immigration at that level costs us more. Immigration to fill skills we don't have in the country (doctors, nurses etc) is completely different although I would still argue that much, much more should be done to train our own as a priority but that takes significant time. There is a high demand for people wanting to emigrate to the UK. We can prioritise people that have the skills which we are lacking rather than having to turn away those people because we have to keep numbers manageable due to an influx of people that we have no control over that have the same skills as people we already have.Opposition to immigration is not necessarily xenophobia. Some people oppose immigration because of labour market competition and a downward effect on their wages. It has little to do with the innate 'foreignness' of workers. Of course, some people are out-and-out racists, but not everyone who wants restrictions on free movement is a racist.
True. But a lot of it is.Opposition to immigration is not necessarily xenophobia. Some people oppose immigration because of labour market competition and a downward effect on their wages. It has little to do with the innate 'foreignness' of workers. Of course, some people are out-and-out racists, but not everyone who wants restrictions on free movement is a racist.
It’s not irrelevant at the trust has gone. Those folks who wouldn’t vote for Labour with JC in it.. do they rate Starmer as a credible alternative to Sunak. Will they vote for a party with Dianne Abbot in it? The people I speak to are very much of the opinion that Labour is shyte. So either vote Conservative as at least they get things done or will not be voting for another Party as they feel so deeply betrayed by Labour over a number of issues.. but mainly Brexit and Corbyn.
Reeve against capital gains tax rises
Labour criticised Sunak for paying less tax (because his earnings came through CGT) but won't increase capital gains tax
And if that wasn't tory enough they've just admitted Labour is the party of low taxes (literally the Tories line) so basically more underfunded public services whoever you vote