.

1finny said:
It will cause a bit of a ruck
But
Starmer has laid out the logic - with Starmer endorsed it diminishes the chances of a Labour win.

I probably agree with him on that.
Others won’t but - at least we understand.

As for JC - he can stand as an independent will get elected and continue to do what he does.
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Totally agree ; we need to nullify those Tory barstewards and play a straight bat to get into government because otherwise this country will be finished completely (if it isn't already - which I think it virtually is) It's going to need back to back Labour victories to somehow salvage the soul of this country back....with some solid financial management and slowly bring the NHS back to life alongside public services and reign in the big corporates who are literally choking this country with the help of Sunak and co...
 
Ex Footy Legs said:
Totally agree ; we need to nullify those Tory barstewards and play a straight bat to get into government because otherwise this country will be finished completely (if it isn't already - which I think it virtually is) It's going to need back to back Labour victories to somehow salvage the soul of this country back....with some solid financial management and slowly bring the NHS back to life alongside public services and reign in the big corporates who are literally choking this country with the help of Sunak and co...
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Turning into the Tories isn't nullifying them, it's nullifying Labour.
 
Ex Footy Legs said:
Totally agree ; we need to nullify those Tory barstewards and play a straight bat to get into government because otherwise this country will be finished completely (if it isn't already - which I think it virtually is) It's going to need back to back Labour victories to somehow salvage the soul of this country back....with some solid financial management and slowly bring the NHS back to life alongside public services and reign in the big corporates who are literally choking this country with the help of Sunak and co...
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Which bit of this are you expecting Starmer to do?
 
We should just carry on pummelling the left into the ground, fellas. Just keep those blows raining leftwards. And then when we’ve pummelled those on the left firmly into the ground, crushed them into the dirt, the dust, and made sure we’ve made everyone aware that we think they’re all lying and racist sh*ts whose opinions we hate and votes we don’t need, and we’ve got our turn, we’ll be able to start behaving completely differently to how we’ve behaved for the past 7.5 years.
 
I am not convinced changing leadership will be a big voter winner for Labour, if we use the by elections results since Starmer was appointed. Labour are much looking to an anti-Tory vote opposed to pro-Labour vote. I do agree Starmer is harder to attack, because he has no baggage from the past.

In Hartlepool the Labour Vote dropped from 38% to 29% (2019 to 2021) after the leadership change. The Labour candiddate was judged a good candidate, so its probably the Party image and policies that affected the drop in the Labour vote.

In other recent by-elections swings, typically Tory voters have failed to turn up to vote - this of course could happen at a General Election and result in a Labour victory. Having Labour odds to get the most seats is probably a correct call, but I would like to see them have clear polices on creating a more equal Britain where opportunity for a 18 year old in Middlesbrough is similar to the opportunities for a 18 year old in the South East.
 
Andy_W said:
The average position of the people dictates and defines where the centre position is, it's impossible for this to not be the case. You can put your party where you like, but if you don't get the centre guys, you lose.

The middle does move from side to side, 1/3rd of that time it's Labour, 2/3 it's Tory, it's right weighted, you can't balance that out by being further left as you win 0/3 and the Tories win 3/3.

I absolutely detest that this is the way it is, but that's the way it is, it's purely a mathematical fact and always will be when we're counting votes (assuming seats are similar to votes). It's also a mathematical fact that the guy sat in the middle, who can pick either side is the most important vote, is this vote sways elections more than any other. The Tories don't need right votes, and Labour don't need the left votes, they both need the centre votes, otherwise there's no point to it.

The media influences the average position of the people.
Age influences the average position of the people.
Wealth influences the average position of the people.
The media influences this position, and is heavily weighted to influencing the old, who vote, and who mostly have wealth (than young folk).
Wages influence the position, people think that because they earn 30k they're middle class, and some of them are daft enough to Vote Tory, thinking they're getting good value from it. Anyone earning 100k would be luck to get value form the Tories, but people don't see it.
Having control for a long time enables you to move seat boundaries, further making it harder for the other side, this is another problem Labour have and they're going to have to undo this when they get in power again.
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I agree, I think the middle is defined by the custom and practice of the people in the country as much as anything.

Our history is rooted in the feudal system where people got a small dwelling, a bit of the food off the land and no doubt a few hand outs here and there from the lord of the manor.

Sounds familiar?

And don’t underestimate how many millions of British subjects out there are happy with that natural order of things which has been implanted in their psyche and culture over many generations.

In my opinion that’s how the Tories have got away with it right into the modern technological age.
 
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newyddion said:
Which was reinforced by the words and actions of Labour MPs
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He was an easy target due to his past associations with groups regarded as terrorists, it was easy for the Tory propagandists to get at him for this alone, regardless of any good intentions.

Once he was out from under the radar in 2017 as a big Labour vote machine they knew which lines of attack to take.
 
In my humble opinion the Labour Party needs to run on a Pro Democracy ticket which has been it’s biggest weakness in recent years.

Work towards Keir Starmer strengths.. pointing the finger and forensically dismantling the opposition, surely he should be able to do that. This one of the lads Tory boy light schtick is no working at all.

• Proportional Representation, every vote should count, put power back into the hands of the people.

• Stop MPs from taking paid second jobs, with limited exemptions to maintain professional registrations.

• Require all MPs, Lords and parliamentary candidates to be resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in Britain for tax.

• Put trust back into politics by giving constituents the right to sack corrupt MPs

• Abolish the House of Lords, replanning it with a smaller democratically elected 2nd house.

Pretty easy targets to select and pick off here. Johnson, Sunak, Hancock.. should be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Jeremy Corbyn and The Socialist Campaign Group should cross the floor and join the Green Party.
 
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HolgateCorner said:
He was an easy target due to his past associations with groups regarded as terrorists, it was easy for the Tory propagandists to get at him for this alone, regardless of any good intentions.

Once he was out from under the radar in 2017 as a big Labour vote machine they knew which lines of attack to take.
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He was targeted by MPs in his own party.. that was the issue. It’s an easy cop out to blame the press, but that nonsense was backed up and elaborated by Labour’s right wing.
 
newyddion said:
He was targeted by MPs in his own party.. that was the issue. It’s an easy cop out to blame the press, but that nonsense was backed up and elaborated by Labour’s right wing.
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I agree a number of Labour MPs didn’t help at all but I’m not convinced the average voter takes too much notice of all that stuff - look how chronically divided the Tories were going into 2019.

In my opinion it’s the sound bites the Sun and Mail churned out about the IRA and the PLO that resonated and all the Jewish stuff which meant they could portray him as some kind of anti patriotic racist terrorist. Don’t forget the Tory candidates repeating this on the doorstep.

Unfortunately it does enough to turn on the doubt in enough voters minds to make a difference.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I agree a number of Labour MPs didn’t help at all but I’m not convinced the average voter takes too much notice of all that stuff - look how chronically divided the Tories were going into 2019.

In my opinion it’s the sound bites the Sun and Mail churned out about the IRA and the PLO that resonated and all the Jewish stuff which meant they could portray him as some kind of anti patriotic racist terrorist. Don’t forget the Tory candidates repeating this on the doorstep.

Unfortunately it does enough to turn on the doubt in enough voters minds to make a difference.
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all of that stuff was bad and it probably swayed a few voters who were on the fence.. but the difference was made and the seats were lost with this
D1193626-81CC-4710-844E-04549168B6B6.jpeg

likes of Dr Paul Williams coming out to say he would campaign against his constituents.. this was true of many leave areas and the reason the red wall was lost to the tories.
 
newyddion said:
all of that stuff was bad and it probably swayed a few voters who were on the fence.. but the difference was made and the seats were lost with this
View attachment 55424

likes of Dr Paul Williams coming out to say he would campaign against his constituents.. this was true of many leave areas and the reason the red wall was lost to the tories.
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Yes I agree the policy was wrong, maybe Labour MPs were still in denial about the referendum result, Brexit definitely got Johnson over the line. My comments above were more about the difference between Corbyn 2017 and 2019.

That said I can imagine a lot of Labour voters will not be happy with the current treatment of Corbyn regardless of its political motivations, I voted for him and always thought his heart was in the right place.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Yes I agree the policy was wrong, maybe Labour MPs were still in denial about the referendum result, Brexit definitely got Johnson over the line. My comments above were more about the difference between Corbyn 2017 and 2019.

That said I can imagine a lot of Labour voters will not be happy with the current treatment of Corbyn regardless of its political motivations, I voted for him and always thought his heart was in the right place.
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Brexit was the be all snd end all of the 2019 election and the time in between the right had to concoct a plan to undermine the party finally stumbling on the anti semitism lie which the very worst of the party used and continue to use to keep the status quo.

Shameful really as it’s taking all meaning out of the word, used at a local level to throw at those who simply supported a free NHS!

History will look back over these recent years and the truth will be told. I can’t imagine what state we will be in when the penny finally drops.
 
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