Starmer on Marr this morning

[Lefty]

As a remain voter it would be great to hear Starmer say we should never have left and the new deal is rubbish, but I think/hope he is simply avoiding falling in to the only trap Johnson and co can lay at the moment.

He doesn't need to say it, there is a very clear majority in the country (56/44) who now think it was a mistake and (according to our thinking anyway) it is only going to increase as time passes in this Parliament. He can simply highlight every facet as it becomes more apparent, and then explain it is due to a fairly incompetently negotiated deal or incompetence reacting to the deal everyone knew they were voting to get 4-5 years previously. It should be open goal/fish in a barrel time.

Personally, I don't think we should rejoin until there is a good solid circa 2/3 majority in favour of rejoining for a sustained few years. Thinking it was a mistake to have left and wanting to rejoin are not the same thing. When it comes to rejoining, the Brexiters will no doubt make a big thing that we would have to join the Euro, as we would have to make a committment to that in principle, though in practice we could stay out indefinitely.

The deal our government of brexidiots have done with the EU means we will be engaged in virtually permanent ongoing negotiations which will draw us gradually back closer to the Single Market anyway.

We made our choice, we need the dust to settle and the consequences play out for a while now. That is the view in Europe anyway, they ain't having us back for a little while yet. Hopefully one of the consequences is electoral reform. Another that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales are either treated better or gain their independence. A third that Eton and the Oxford debating society are reduced permanently to rubble and best of all the Conservative Party either splits from the loons in control now or is in the wilderness for decades.

The one essential thing we must make an outcome of this fiasco is that people understand it was a mistake and the poor critical thinking skills that allowed it, because it is those same failings that led to dreadful errors like Iraq, Nazism, Lysenkoism, Macarthyism, Trumpism and so on.

 

[Emmersons_BrazillianDong]

It’s not clear from the example whether she wanted to travel or work, regardless there are ways and means to do either of these things. They may not be the same as before but that’s the point when you leave a club , new rules apply, it’s a hardly a surprise - did you expect it to stay exactly the same as before?

Genuine question posed without wanting to cause an argument:

What are the benefits of leaving the club?

 

[Statto1]

Delighted to hear him say " I don't think there is a case for rejoining the EU" and ruling out the return of free movement. Pragmatic and sensible view. After the disastrous Brexit policy nice to see he is being much more sensible now.

I think he's doing the right thing, but it's not for the reasons you or most think it is.

The must crucial thing being is to do (or at least say) whatever it takes to get the Tories out, and take zero risk with that. But it's good to see he's taking the gullible leave lot for what they are, just bend the truth with them they lap that up (don't even need to lie to them, which they also love). Just say what they want to hear, and they will naturally move back over to Labour and then once Labour are in power re-join the customs union and single market, whether that's paid access or in return for freedom of movement, or a negotiated variant of that.

Most leavers won't have any complaints when it happens, they will probably not notice or they will be glad about it, as it will be swapping Asian and African faces/ immigration for European white face/ immigration ones, they probably won't even notice as we will still be "OUT OUT OUT" as they call it. It won't be as good a deal as we had, as we will have no say, and it will cost us more, but it's better than the alternative "deal", which is basically still a hard brexit.

I know a few Labour voters will not like what he's saying at the minute, I don't think it's ideal either, but in order to make changes, you have to win first and what we've had previous could not win. I appreciate the tactics behind it, and behind a lot that he's doing (saying). There is absolute zero chance labour could win taking a Corbyn stance or "re-join" stance, not for the next few years (which are going to be a disaster). Just let the Tories have their disaster and don't fight it, as there's not much that can be done about it anyway now. Just switch the brexit to a softer brexit once they have their foot in the door.

Even if Labour don't secure enough seats for a majority, ti will still be ok, if Keir is towing the line, as the Tories would not win enough either. The big difference being Labour would have a much easer route to a coalition than the Tories would (who burnt all their tiny bridges).

 

[Muttley]

What are the benefits of leaving the club?

Blue passports and fish, err not fish, no one mentioned fish, right?

 

[SuperStu]

The must crucial thing being is to do (or at least say) whatever it takes to get the Tories out, and take zero risk with that.

Just say what they want to hear, and they will naturally move back over to Labour and then once Labour are in power re-join the customs union and single market, whether that's paid access or in return for freedom of movement, or a negotiated variant of that.

I always chuckle seeing people make this sort of case. For Labour's leaders to campaign as tories, which will magically lead to victory, then when they're in office suddenly pivot to whatever other policies they really want. How are they meant to win a second term doing this? Won't all the new tory voters they've conned be even more anti-Labour than they've ever been at that point?

I know a few Labour voters will not like what he's saying at the minute

Bit of an understatement. How many CLPs have been banned from having meetings recently?

Even if Labour don't secure enough seats for a majority, ti will still be ok, if Keir is towing the line, as the Tories would not win enough either. The big difference being Labour would have a much easer route to a coalition than the Tories would (who burnt all their tiny bridges).

Who will Labour be able to go in to a coalition with? Realistically SNP would be the only possible option. Wonder what their price would be.

 

[tripleheader]

I was talking to a girl at the check out in Tesco today. She's working part time while studying a law degree. She was hoping to spend a year in Europe, but is probably not able to now.

At 19 she's one of the generation with no voice. Too young to vote in 2016 but now dealing with the ***** of older people.

Really nothing new there, the young have always blamed their peers.

 

[r00fie1]

Starmer accepts end of EU free movement in Brexit reversal

Labour leader rules out extensive renegotiation if party wins next election

www.theguardian.com

​

Starmer accepts end of EU free movement in Brexit reversal​

Labour leader rules out extensive renegotiation if party wins next election

Andrew Sparrow Political correspondent
@AndrewSparrow
Edit Mon 11 Jan 2021 04.36 GMT

Keir Starmer says he will not campaign for return of EU free movement – video

Keir Starmer has abandoned the commitment to free movement of people in the European Union he made to Labour members during the party’s leadership contest.

The Labour leader said his party had to be honest with the public, and that if it won the next general election a major renegotiation of the Brexit treaty would not be possible.

The deal, which was finalised on Christmas Eve, confirmed the end of free movement for Britons and EU nationals within each others’ countries because it kept the UK out of the single market, as the Tories promised in their 2019 election manifesto.

In an interview with the BBC’s Andrew Marr, Starmer was reminded that when standing for the Labour leadership after the party’s election defeat he said, as one of 10 pledges, he would “defend free movement as we leave the EU”.



Marr also pointed out that in January 2019, when he was asked specifically if he would bring back free movement of EU citizens to the UK, he had replied: “Yes of course, bring back, argue for, challenge.”


Starmer told Marr, however, that he was ruling out the sort of extensive renegotiation of the Brexit treaty that would be required to restore free movement.


“I don’t think that there’s scope for major renegotiation. We’ve just had four years of negotiation. We’ve arrived at a treaty and now we’ve got to make that treaty work,” he said.


He said there were aspects of the treaty that might be improved on, including how it covered the creative industries and what it did for the service sector, which he said had largely been left out.


When it was put to him that this would disappoint Labour members who voted for him because of his commitment to free movement, Starmer said it was not realistic to pretend that the EU would want to negotiate a new Brexit treaty with the UK.


“Whether we like it or not, that is going to be the treaty that an incoming Labour government inherits and has to make work. And it is not being straight with the British public to say we can come into office in 2024 and operate some other treaty,” he said.


Free movement became an issue in the leadership campaign after the party conference backed the principle in autumn 2019. The commitment was linked to defending migrants’ rights generally, but it contradicted previous party comments saying free movement would end if the UK left the EU.


Asked by Marr if he thought government debt, at about 100% of GDP, was at a dangerous level, Starmer said: “We’re going to have to reassess debt.” He would not, however, say how until he knew the state of the economy at the time of the next election.


He refused to commit to renewing Labour’s 2019 pledge for free broadband in the next election manifesto, although he said more should be done to improve broadband access for disadvantaged pupils and their families.


Starmer also said he did not favour another Scottish independence referendum now, but that he thought Boris Johnson was wrong to rule one out for another 40 years.


He also said the status quo with regard to Scotland wasn’t working, which is why he said Labour favoured a constitutional commission.

 

[HolgateCorner]

Starmer accepts end of EU free movement in Brexit reversal

Labour leader rules out extensive renegotiation if party wins next election

www.theguardian.com

​

Starmer accepts end of EU free movement in Brexit reversal​

Labour leader rules out extensive renegotiation if party wins next election

Andrew Sparrow Political correspondent
@AndrewSparrow
Edit Mon 11 Jan 2021 04.36 GMT

Keir Starmer says he will not campaign for return of EU free movement – video

Keir Starmer has abandoned the commitment to free movement of people in the European Union he made to Labour members during the party’s leadership contest.

The Labour leader said his party had to be honest with the public, and that if it won the next general election a major renegotiation of the Brexit treaty would not be possible.

The deal, which was finalised on Christmas Eve, confirmed the end of free movement for Britons and EU nationals within each others’ countries because it kept the UK out of the single market, as the Tories promised in their 2019 election manifesto.

In an interview with the BBC’s Andrew Marr, Starmer was reminded that when standing for the Labour leadership after the party’s election defeat he said, as one of 10 pledges, he would “defend free movement as we leave the EU”.
View attachment 12085


Marr also pointed out that in January 2019, when he was asked specifically if he would bring back free movement of EU citizens to the UK, he had replied: “Yes of course, bring back, argue for, challenge.”


Starmer told Marr, however, that he was ruling out the sort of extensive renegotiation of the Brexit treaty that would be required to restore free movement.


“I don’t think that there’s scope for major renegotiation. We’ve just had four years of negotiation. We’ve arrived at a treaty and now we’ve got to make that treaty work,” he said.


He said there were aspects of the treaty that might be improved on, including how it covered the creative industries and what it did for the service sector, which he said had largely been left out.


When it was put to him that this would disappoint Labour members who voted for him because of his commitment to free movement, Starmer said it was not realistic to pretend that the EU would want to negotiate a new Brexit treaty with the UK.


“Whether we like it or not, that is going to be the treaty that an incoming Labour government inherits and has to make work. And it is not being straight with the British public to say we can come into office in 2024 and operate some other treaty,” he said.


Free movement became an issue in the leadership campaign after the party conference backed the principle in autumn 2019. The commitment was linked to defending migrants’ rights generally, but it contradicted previous party comments saying free movement would end if the UK left the EU.


Asked by Marr if he thought government debt, at about 100% of GDP, was at a dangerous level, Starmer said: “We’re going to have to reassess debt.” He would not, however, say how until he knew the state of the economy at the time of the next election.


He refused to commit to renewing Labour’s 2019 pledge for free broadband in the next election manifesto, although he said more should be done to improve broadband access for disadvantaged pupils and their families.


Starmer also said he did not favour another Scottish independence referendum now, but that he thought Boris Johnson was wrong to rule one out for another 40 years.


He also said the status quo with regard to Scotland wasn’t working, which is why he said Labour favoured a constitutional commission.

Nobody will remember all this enormous detail in four years time (I got a bit bored after the first couple of lines) and the world will be different then and Starmer will have changed to suit.

Survival belongs to the most adaptable - look at Boris Johnson for the best example of that, he proved in the last election that it doesn‘t matter what you have said previously as long as you harness the current issues and mood.

 

[r00fie1]

Dont let the needs of the many get in the way of the chameleon opportunists in suits.
We wont forget.

 

[HolgateCorner]

Dont let the needs of the many get in the way of the chameleon opportunists in suits.
We wont forget.

People only get the politicians they vote for and encourage, not as individuals but as a collective.

 

[r00fie1]

People only get the politicians they vote for and encourage, not as individuals but as a collective.

Starmer was voted into his position by Labour Party Members on the back of smears, harassment, false promises and expulsions.
He and his General Secretary David Evans continue to expel / suspend activists and Party Members, including a large number of Jewish and B.A.M.E members, without giving specific details of allegations or by whom. He is an ideological sledgehammer. If you want somewhere to start - look at concrete examples highlighted by JEWISH VOICE FOR LABOUR:

Jewish Voice for Labour

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

 

[Erimus74]

This is what makes me so angry!
Poor lass, all because of an older racist xenophobic generation who are wandering around completely unaware of their prejudices
And therefore voting for Brexit
My parents are a case in point and my older brother
So sad

Looks like you were the black sheep of the family EFL

 

[HolgateCorner]

Starmer was voted into his position by Labour Party Members on the back of smears, harassment, false promises and expulsions.
He and his General Secretary David Evans continue to expel / suspend activists and Party Members, including a large number of Jewish and B.A.M.E members, without giving specific details of allegations or by whom. He is an ideological sledgehammer. If you want somewhere to start - look at concrete examples highlighted by JEWISH VOICE FOR LABOUR:

Jewish Voice for Labour

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

Yes I‘ve had a look and there is clearly a problem, but is it just yet another political group wanting their own way? Politics is about getting your own way.
I’m not a political activist or a member of a party I just have an interest as an everyday punter reading the news and forums like this and my view is that Starmer will either prove himself up to the job or he won’t but infighting by Labour activists of any group will be exploited to the full by the Tories and will continue to keep the Tories in power.
One thing for sure is that by keeping people focussed on Labour internal battles, the performance and scrutiny of the Tory Government is kept to the back of their minds.

 

[SuperStu]

One thing for sure is that by keeping people focussed on Labour internal battles, the performance and scrutiny of the Tory Government is kept to the back of their minds.

I find it hard to see Starmer's MO for dealing with internal battles paying off in the long run.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/labour-antisemitism-forde-inquiry-leaked-report-what-happening

Another kick in the teeth for left wing members of the Labour Party.

"But much of this was quietly ditched in a “call for evidence” issued last summer. In an announcement all but ignored by the mainstream media, the Forde inquiry said that its “focus” would be, from that point on, only on the third aspect: the most nebulous of the three areas of investigation."

 

[r00fie1]

Yes I‘ve had a look and there is clearly a problem, but is it just yet another political group wanting their own way? Politics is about getting your own way.
I’m not a political activist or a member of a party I just have an interest as an everyday punter reading the news and forums like this and my view is that Starmer will either prove himself up to the job or he won’t but infighting by Labour activists of any group will be exploited to the full by the Tories and will continue to keep the Tories in power.
One thing for sure is that by keeping people focussed on Labour internal battles, the performance and scrutiny of the Tory Government is kept to the back of their minds.

Expelling Jewish members for being "anti-semitic" is not about "wanting their own way" (!).
Its racist and deliberate political interference by the leadership - the very same thing they accused Corbyn of!
Its unacceptible.
Should racism, homophobia, sexism, and all other prejudice be casually dismissed as "wanting their own way".
Its against the law for a start.
Starmer is a right wing Tory in a suit.

 

[r00fie1]

'The wrong sort of Jew': How Labour pursued complaints against elderly Jewish opponents of Israel

Labour's investigations into antisemitism raise questions about the nature and definition of what the party is attempting to root out

www.middleeasteye.net

'The wrong sort of Jew': How Labour pursued complaints against elderly Jewish opponents of Israel​

Labour and antisemitism: What’s going on at the Forde inquiry?

The independent investigation means that the antisemitism row won't go away for Labour Party leader Keir Starmer

www.middleeasteye.net

The independent investigation means that the antisemitism row won't go away for Labour Party leader Keir Starmer

"The report, entitled "The work of the Labour Party's Governance and Legal Unit in relation to antisemitism, 2014-2019", was commissioned by then-general secretary Jennie Formby, an ally of Jeremy Corbyn, during the dying days of his leadership. It was leaked to the press in April 2020 after Labour Party leader Keir Starmer elected not to publish it.

The leaked report produced a mountain of evidence which, if true, largely exonerated Corbyn of the charge that he had been complacent on antisemitism. Instead, it pointed the finger at party officials who had been among his fiercest critics.

Forde’s report into that leaked report was due to have been published before the end of 2020. Just before Christmas, it was quietly announced that publication has been delayed until “early in 2021”.

 

[Laughing]

There is mounting evidence against Starmer. There is so much infighting with the Labour party it just seems, to the casual observer, he said, she said.

They really need to get their house in order.

 

[SuperStu]

There is mounting evidence against Starmer. There is so much infighting with the Labour party it just seems, to the casual observer, he said, she said.

They really need to get their house in order.

Perhaps if he gave some more of the members money to the folk who sabotaged the party the last 5 years it would all fix itself?

 

[Alvez_48]

From a 'progressive' perspective if Starmer makes it to office it could actually do more damage long term.

The argument then becomes 'only a centrist' can win elections. Completely ignoring all of the media assistance offered to Starmer compared to a progressive politician (like Corbyn or to a lesser extent Sanders).

The question becomes does Starmer make enough positive change for people to justify his sole purpose being removing the corrupt to the core Tories..

I honestly don't think he's worth it at the moment.

 

[Ironops]

'The argument then becomes 'only a centrist' can win elections.'

But thats the truth for Labour - when was the last time a labour leader who wasnt a centrist or from the soft left side won an election?