Starmer - Britain's Trump

And no offense, genuinely this time, but if someone with your voting record is defending Labour and people like me are attacking them then they are probably not representing the people that they should be.
That's an interesting response. You don't think my vote counts because of something that happened 6 years ago? I guess that's why you keep bringing it up, you don't understand that people can learn, that feelings can change. That's a real shame for you really. And it shows you don't really respect democracy if you think your opinion carries more weight

Depends how you attack them.
And I think that's why the OP is getting such pelters, his attacks on Starmer are based on sensationalism and outright lies. Not a great look. TBF the sensationalism is the problem for me. We KNOW the far right lie. It's there thing. The sensationalism is a problem because it's endemic in British media. The extreme reactions to any labour issue is in stark contrast to the measured and sometimes muted response to year after year of Tory scandal.
It also depends where you live. I'm in a very safe seat so I can lend my vote to a more left-wing party (Greens) because there's no danger of the Tories winning. If I was in a swing area then Labour would be more likely to get my vote.
Agree 100% on this. Was different for me. Labour had no chance of getting in at all but my constituency bounces between Lib Dem and Tory so I had to vote Lib Dem. If I'm honest, that's where I sit at the moment. as a liberal, pro European, right of centre thinker I would love to see Lib Dems in power but that is literally impossible. So for me the best alternative (and by some way at the moment) is Labour.
 
I thuoght so too. I can understand people holding differing points of view. I get that. But when you have to lie to justify your view, surely that's the point where you think "I might not have this correct?" When you're making up lies about secret air strikes do you not think " AH maybe I'm not getting this?"
Secret air strikes?

What I said was:
"This includes the RAF flying secret missions over Gaza, without any parliamentary oversight"


Now whose lying?
 
Secret air strikes?

What I said was:
"This includes the RAF flying secret missions over Gaza, without any parliamentary oversight"


Now whose lying?
"Britain’s Ministry of Defence told Declassified that the aircraft “did not enter Gazan airspace and at all times operated in accordance with the ceasefire and hostage release agreement between Israel and Hamas”."
 
That's an interesting response. You don't think my vote counts because of something that happened 6 years ago? I guess that's why you keep bringing it up, you don't understand that people can learn, that feelings can change. That's a real shame for you really. And it shows you don't really respect democracy if you think your opinion carries more weight
No, I'm genuinely not offending. It was in no way a dig at you. My point is that Labour are appealing more to the centre/centre right (which I was assuming you are * and using that as an example) rather than the left, the traditional working class core vote. It's nothing to do with your vote not counting or my opinion carrying more weight. I think that Labour should concentrate on representing its core and then people in the centre have a decision between whether that is a better choice than the alternative. Everyone's vote counts equally but if Labour win by being Tory-like then is it even worth winning? We flip flop between Tory and Labour and realistically they are the only parties that have a chance of being in power. The Tories will always look after their core, the wealthy donors, so if Labour aren't looking after their core then who is? When do the working classes get their turn to be represented effectively? Why do we spend so much of our focus on improving the lives of the people that don't need help at the expense of those that do?

* I assume most people's personal politics/beliefs don't change much. Parties move and the Tories have moved right significantly over their time in government and Labour have moved right so now Labour are a better fit for you. Labour moved left under Corbyn and were a better fit for me but now they have shifted right they aren't.
 
Between 1979 and 2024 Labour were in government for only 13 out of those 45 years. I'm not sure how old you were in 1979 or whether you were even born but I can tell you that between 1979 and 1995 Labour wasn't even in a position to govern. The party was a shambles. In my opinion neither was the party in a position to govern in the period between 2010 and 2022. I know some will be on complaining about how nasty everyone was to Jeremy and he should have won in 2017 and if he had done we'd all be living in a Socialist utopia. But that's bolloxks. To govern you need a leader and someone committed to the party and the country.

So we've got a Labour Government and yes in certain areas they are finding it difficult. They can do much better and I'm confident they will so yes you may be disappointed that they're only the best of a bad bunch at present but I'm prepared to give them time to sort out the mess left by the Tories.
2025 Labour is the best of a bad bunch.

Between 1975 and 1995 Labour were in a position to govern on several occasions. The Gang of Four and SDP laid waste to those opportunities.. much like the Liberal Democrats since.. infact exactly like the Liberal Democrat’s.. in every form that they have taken.. their only purpose seemingly to split the vote and pass on power to the Conservative Party.

Labour took the general public for granted in 2010 and had moved too far to the right.. this opened up a space for the Liberal Democrats to wear that mask and indeed the Conservative Party to play moderate centrist for a day.

Ed Miliband was fighting a losing battle much like his counterpart William Hague before him. Both competent politicians especially in comparison to the current crop.

Traditional Labour values got Labour back on the map but unfortunately we didn’t have enough Traditional Labour Representatives to carry that vision. A socialist utopia is way of the mark.. it was actually a left of centre moderate plan that would have had us in reality no further to the left than a Thatcher government!

Traditional Labour values including being anti EU did not sit well with momentum who were holding support together.. this created a bit of an awkward situation when it came to having an anti EU parliamentarian sitting on the fence going against a pro EU charlatan banging the drum for a no deal exit.

Let’s not forget the magic word whispered to destroy any political career.. ‘Palestine’ add into that the move to stop Russian money going into the pockets of gravy train politicians.. there was no way we the public would be allowed to actually have what we wanted.. our country back.
 
"Britain’s Ministry of Defence told Declassified that the aircraft “did not enter Gazan airspace and at all times operated in accordance with the ceasefire and hostage release agreement between Israel and Hamas”."
"Britain’s Ministry of Defence told Declassified" 🤣🤣🤣

 
I find it concerning reading some of the stuff Starmer and his team are saying about how AI can do this, that and the other and it how it can help deliver up to £45bn in savings. It *sounds* good but there’s a huge amount to unpack.

For example, I’ve worked as a copywriter for years now, and one leading high street fashion retailer I freelance for is using AI to write large swathes of its online product descriptions. When I work for them my job is to edit what AI has produced and get it into shape to be published. The stuff AI is producing needs to be drastically edited before it can go anywhere near the company website. It’s almost always incorrect, repetitive or frequently not even relevant to the product I’m working on. It’s my first experience of working with AI and if it’s like this in other places and industries then good god, we are in trouble.

Talking about running government departments on it, delivering public services with it, just seems like absolute fantasy imo. But as I say, it’s the new thing everyone is talking about so I can see why politicians think it does *sound* good to talk about it too. I just think, who’s controlling it, managing it, editing it, etc. Who owns this AI and is it just another load of tech the already wealthy can buy, own, invest in and make money on? At the moment I think it’s something companies or politicians are talking about because potential wealthy investors and supporters like idea of using tech, being associated with it and with companies or organisations that are into it.

There’s talk of scrapping up to 10,000 civil servants. Okay, fine. But are there any workings about what happens to those people next? Any thoughts on what they’ll do, potential benefits they’ll be entitled to, the knock-on effects and costs of health and well-being. It’s okay saying “we’re going to save x amount of billions by slashing this, that and the other” but that’s only a tiny fraction of the story.

There’s a bit of a blame culture going on imo. Computers can do this better, slash this, get rid him, him and her, cut that, save this and that. We don’t this, that or them. It’s dangerous rhetoric and it doesn’t really feel any different to what’s gone before tbh.
How were they using the AI to do it, did they have something custom made up which they hired in an expert and spent a lot of time to create it? Or was it just some random person chucking crap into a free chat GPT account, and then sending you the results?

The AI can do it, certainly something relatively simple like a product description, no doubt about it, and it can do 100x more complicated than that. But with AI the output is extremely reliant on the input, **** in = **** out etc. Even basic mistakes like using an old free version of Chat GPT and comparing that to something like the latest version of Claude (which is much better at writing apparently).

A lot of people have used AI, and might get 90% of a result of what they had previous in 10% of the time, it sounds like a downgrade but it isn't, as time is valuable. Obviously with health and things like that treating someone 90% rather than 100% might not be good, but if you treat 10 people 90% in the same amount of time, then you cut wait lists and can catch things early, it's likely way better than treating one person 100%, but after a 1 year wait, and the other 9 waiting longer than that. Things like image recognition with scans, running blood tests, whatever, all very basic stuff for AI already and can already do it with better accuracy and much faster than a human.

I've been looking at all of this quite a lot, as I basically want to replace myself with AI, and then just monitor the AI, but it's going to take a lot of time to set it up properly, which I've not had time for yet. I've created a lot of tools now, which haven't really saved me much time yet, as I don't really do a lot of volume, but the quality of the outputs I'm now giving out are 5x better. It's not that I couldn't have made them 5x better myself but the time taken to repeat that every time would have been ludicrous.

A big thing with AI now is prompt engineering, actually writing the prompt for the AI is a skill in itself, and the vast majority of people are lazy with it (myself included). Most people tend to start off with a one liner prompt, get a half assed response and then fight it for an hour to get what they want, it's not the way to do it. There are even AI programs specifically designed to write you the perfect prompt.

Then you can go one stage further and use custom GPT's and train the AI specifically on what you want, till it basically becomes an expert in that.

Then you can go one stage further than that using AI agents which can basically act like helpers, trawling sites, finding out info on competition/ competitor products etc.

Someone clued up with AI, given a week or a month, could replace 20 or 2000 people and give out a better result, but it does need time setting up, and the right person doing it. The problem is there are not that many skilled at that as it hasn't been around very long yet, and a lot of the tools are still in infancy and fairly complicated to use, but this is changing, very quickly.

What we need to be doing now is actually training people on AI, and how to use it and build things, as well as being able to monitor outputs, to get the most out of it. If Labour are looking at AI they're looking at the present and looking forward, which is a good thing, as it can't be ignored.
 
I don't think anyone is votin for Starmer, only against the Tories.
I think this is where we would disagree. When faced with a choice more people voted Labour than Conservative but plenty did still vote Tory. There's no evidence to suggest that millions voted Labour this time when otherwise they wouldn't have done.
 
No, I'm genuinely not offending. It was in no way a dig at you. My point is that Labour are appealing more to the centre/centre right (which I was assuming you are * and using that as an example) rather than the left, the traditional working class core vote. It's nothing to do with your vote not counting or my opinion carrying more weight. I think that Labour should concentrate on representing its core and then people in the centre have a decision between whether that is a better choice than the alternative. Everyone's vote counts equally but if Labour win by being Tory-like then is it even worth winning? We flip flop between Tory and Labour and realistically they are the only parties that have a chance of being in power. The Tories will always look after their core, the wealthy donors, so if Labour aren't looking after their core then who is? When do the working classes get their turn to be represented effectively? Why do we spend so much of our focus on improving the lives of the people that don't need help at the expense of those that do?

* I assume most people's personal politics/beliefs don't change much. Parties move and the Tories have moved right significantly over their time in government and Labour have moved right so now Labour are a better fit for you. Labour moved left under Corbyn and were a better fit for me but now they have shifted right they aren't.
Fair enough.

As far as the * bit goes I partially disagree with you. Things change a lot. I do agree that Political parties are shifting, and the Overton window has moved quite a lot to the right recently which is why Labour are more appealing to someone on the centre like myself. But I disagree that peoples opinions can't change. When I was younger I was definitely further right then I am now. I was single, with a well paid job and a nice little bubble. The right was far more appealing. I still had common sense and thought with my politics, hence always being opposed to things like brexit but I also voted for things that would help me. For example, when I did vote Tory it was for local reasons. I lived in an affluent area but one where local and independent businesses were struggling badly from rates and taxation. My local Tory candidate was for more pro these businesses than my local labour candidate. IN fact the constituency was split between a working class, poor (for west London) area and an affluent, middle class area which the labour candidate pretty much ignored/neglected.

I'm older, wiser (relatively speaking) and with a family. I have always been liberal but I'm more interested in social issues now, in society as a whole. So whilst the country has gone right I have definitely gone left. People change, circumstances change, what people want and expect from the world changes. I have zero political affiliations so I just call it how I see it
 
I find it concerning reading some of the stuff Starmer and his team are saying about how AI can do this, that and the other and it how it can help deliver up to £45bn in savings. It *sounds* good but there’s a huge amount to unpack.

For example, I’ve worked as a copywriter for years now, and one leading high street fashion retailer I freelance for is using AI to write large swathes of its online product descriptions. When I work for them my job is to edit what AI has produced and get it into shape to be published. The stuff AI is producing needs to be drastically edited before it can go anywhere near the company website. It’s almost always incorrect, repetitive or frequently not even relevant to the product I’m working on. It’s my first experience of working with AI and if it’s like this in other places and industries then good god, we are in trouble.

Talking about running government departments on it, delivering public services with it, just seems like absolute fantasy imo. But as I say, it’s the new thing everyone is talking about so I can see why politicians think it does *sound* good to talk about it too. I just think, who’s controlling it, managing it, editing it, etc. Who owns this AI and is it just another load of tech the already wealthy can buy, own, invest in and make money on? At the moment I think it’s something companies or politicians are talking about because potential wealthy investors and supporters like idea of using tech, being associated with it and with companies or organisations that are into it.

There’s talk of scrapping up to 10,000 civil servants. Okay, fine. But are there any workings about what happens to those people next? Any thoughts on what they’ll do, potential benefits they’ll be entitled to, the knock-on effects and costs of health and well-being. It’s okay saying “we’re going to save x amount of billions by slashing this, that and the other” but that’s only a tiny fraction of the story.

There’s a bit of a blame culture going on imo. Computers can do this better, slash this, get rid him, him and her, cut that, save this and that. We don’t this, that or them. It’s dangerous rhetoric and it doesn’t really feel any different to what’s gone before tbh.

I’m in favour of working public services, better infrastructure, a stronger state, etc but once again Labour is avoiding the real issue, which is the failure to tax wealth properly. The need for a wealth tax has never been greater and yet it’s not even mentioned. We are all supposed to pretend we either don’t know about it, or that it isn’t even possible. And that, to my mind, is completely disingenuous behaviour from political leaders because that’s where the money has gone and that’s where we need to start to tax effectively and properly. That’s where the real damage has been done.
Good post Viv. Computers have supposedly been getting rid of civil servants for the last 50 years. That hasn't prevented numbers rising steadily since 2016, however many ministers stand on their back legs and call the state bloated and flabby. AI is just the latest exciting new flavour the Microsoft sales force are furiously peddling to a gullible political class.
 
I think this is where we would disagree. When faced with a choice more people voted Labour than Conservative but plenty did still vote Tory. There's no evidence to suggest that millions voted Labour this time when otherwise they wouldn't have done.
I still think that is a preference of one thing vs the other. Labour is a better option than the Tories for most but the better choice isn't the same as what people want.

I agree with your last sentence though which shows in the voting numbers. Turnout was well down. People weren't out in force endorsing him.

If you could create a party that fits your politics perfectly I don't think there's many people, certainly not traditional Labour voters, that would choose Starmer's Labour.

Corbyn wasn't a good leader of the Parliamentary Labour party but he was a good leader in the sense that people wanted to follow him. Starmer is competent and credible and that is all that was needed to beat the Tories. I think the major disconnect is between the PLP and the Labour membership (and the voters). The PLP are interested in winning for winning's sake. It benefits them. The membership and the voters want/need change and not continuity of the status quo.
 
Starmer has just announced the closure of NHS England.
The reason we have NHS England is so the NHS can't be used as a political football. Having a body like NHS England allows the NHS as an entire organisation to challenge the government. Removing it takes away the voice of the NHS.

I am sure there is some duplication but NHS England is a tiny drop in the £185bn of NHS spending. This seems like a political move rather than one that will generate efficiency.
 
Ah, so all you are is a conspiracy theorist. It all makes sense now.

Declassified is a well regarded source of information. You can read about them here:


The website media bias/fact check described them as follows:
  • Overall, we rate DeClassified UK left-center biased based on story selection and editorial positions that moderately favor the left. We also rate them high for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact-check record.
If you look at the Wikipedia entry it states:

"After Declassified UK had published articles relating to the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry refused to engage or provide further comment to the news organisation. This effective blacklisting in September 2020 led the Council of Europe to issue a media freedom alert for the UK. The UK government only intervened to reverse the blacklisting after Declassified UK threatened legal action in the matter.[2]"

So you can go ahead and naively believe everything the MOD say on the matter.
 
How were they using the AI to do it, did they have something custom made up which they hired in an expert and spent a lot of time to create it? Or was it just some random person chucking crap into a free chat GPT account, and then sending you the results?

The AI can do it, certainly something relatively simple like a product description, no doubt about it, and it can do 100x more complicated than that. But with AI the output is extremely reliant on the input, **** in = **** out etc. Even basic mistakes like using an old free version of Chat GPT and comparing that to something like the latest version of Claude (which is much better at writing apparently).

A lot of people have used AI, and might get 90% of a result of what they had previous in 10% of the time, it sounds like a downgrade but it isn't, as time is valuable. Obviously with health and things like that treating someone 90% rather than 100% might not be good, but if you treat 10 people 90% in the same amount of time, then you cut wait lists and can catch things early, it's likely way better than treating one person 100%, but after a 1 year wait, and the other 9 waiting longer than that. Things like image recognition with scans, running blood tests, whatever, all very basic stuff for AI already and can already do it with better accuracy and much faster than a human.

I've been looking at all of this quite a lot, as I basically want to replace myself with AI, and then just monitor the AI, but it's going to take a lot of time to set it up properly, which I've not had time for yet. I've created a lot of tools now, which haven't really saved me much time yet, as I don't really do a lot of volume, but the quality of the outputs I'm now giving out are 5x better. It's not that I couldn't have made them 5x better myself but the time taken to repeat that every time would have been ludicrous.

A big thing with AI now is prompt engineering, actually writing the prompt for the AI is a skill in itself, and the vast majority of people are lazy with it (myself included). Most people tend to start off with a one liner prompt, get a half assed response and then fight it for an hour to get what they want, it's not the way to do it. There are even AI programs specifically designed to write you the perfect prompt.

Then you can go one stage further and use custom GPT's and train the AI specifically on what you want, till it basically becomes an expert in that.

Then you can go one stage further than that using AI agents which can basically act like helpers, trawling sites, finding out info on competition/ competitor products etc.

Someone clued up with AI, given a week or a month, could replace 20 or 2000 people and give out a better result, but it does need time setting up, and the right person doing it. The problem is there are not that many skilled at that as it hasn't been around very long yet, and a lot of the tools are still in infancy and fairly complicated to use, but this is changing, very quickly.

What we need to be doing now is actually training people on AI, and how to use it and build things, as well as being able to monitor outputs, to get the most out of it. If Labour are looking at AI they're looking at the present and looking forward, which is a good thing, as it can't be ignored.
Excellent post, Andy
 
The reason we have NHS England is so the NHS can't be used as a political football. Having a body like NHS England allows the NHS as an entire organisation to challenge the government. Removing it takes away the voice of the NHS.

I am sure there is some duplication but NHS England is a tiny drop in the £185bn of NHS spending. This seems like a political move rather than one that will generate efficiency.
Not an expert on this matter but was reading that these arms length organisations spend about 350 billion of our money. Surely it must be better to get rid of unnecessary duplication and have the state in charge. Get the political point but the waste must be staggering in that 350 billion. I support Starmer's drive to reduce quangos.
 
According to SKS NHS waiting lists have fallen for the 5th month in a row. Which is important I think. The one reason the tories and of course reform need to be kept from power is the relentless privatisation of the NHS. To reduce waiting list times 5 months in a row is significant. Especially given they were all winter Months
 
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