Some thoughts regarding Saturday

Have Southgate’s England played many games against top opposition and been successful?

I was thinking about this the other day. Considering the tournament runs we’ve had (which have been unbelievable)… which really top teams have we actually beaten?

Germany in the Euros and Colombia in the WC on pens.

Other than that, the draws have been so kind to us that we’ve won the games you’d expect us to win and got beat at the first time of asking by a serious team. Then there’s the Nations League, where we had a brilliant win against Spain, got schooled by Italy and Holland and disappointed against Germany.

I'd suggest just enjoying easily the best and most enjoyable period of watching England in our lifetimes, rather than trying to find ways to undermine what they have achieved.
Watching England at tournaments was extremely grim for a decade before the current set up, and usually for the 40 years before that.
 
Spain, Croatia, Germany, Belgium, Denmark.

Not sure how a draw and a narrow 1-0 loss to Italy is schooling though.
Fair, but Belgium beat us in the World Cup and Croatia did a number on us when it counted, as did Italy.

Don’t think Denmark are that brilliant either. Honestly I reckon we’re a bit better than Croatia, but not as good as top tier international teams like France, Brazil, Spain, Germany under normal circumstances.

To get any further in this tournament we’ll have to beat some big dogs, so let’s see how good we really are.
 
I'd suggest just enjoying easily the best and most enjoyable period of watching England in our lifetimes, rather than trying to find ways to undermine what they have achieved.
Watching England at tournaments was extremely grim for a decade before the current set up, and usually for the 40 years before that.
Oh I agree, it’s been brilliant watching them.

Just occurred to me the other day that we’ve had some unbelievable tournament runs, best of most of our lifetimes - but still, largely due to quirks of the fixtures we’ve had, we haven’t beaten many really top teams.
 
Does seem like England fans are whipping themselves up in to a fervor about Mbappe.

Be very funny if he has a really **** game.

Be very unlikely too, but you never know.
 
Other than that, the draws have been so kind to us that we’ve won the games you’d expect us to win and got beat at the first time of asking by a serious team. Then there’s the Nations League, where we had a brilliant win against Spain, got schooled by Italy and Holland and disappointed against Germany.
We also beat a top croatia side, and beat Belgium who I think might have been classed as the number one side in the world at that point. Unlucky to not beat Germany again in this years Nations League
 
Just occurred to me the other day that we’ve had some unbelievable tournament runs, best of most of our lifetimes - but still, largely due to quirks of the fixtures we’ve had, we haven’t beaten many really top teams.

I haven't worked this out myself, but I wonder how many "top teams" world cup winners typically beat on their way to winning the tournament?

I'd guess 3 is fairly typical. France last time, for example, beat the teams rank 4th, 5th, 17th and 18th in the world in the knockout stage.
I'd be surprised if past winners are routinely ploughing their way through the best in the field.
 
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I haven't done this myself, but I wonder how many "top teams" world cup winners typically beat on their way to winning the tournament?

I'd guess 3 is fairly typical.
Typical, but the mean is probably 2, maybe less if you count penalty wins as draws, which they kinda are.

I mean Italys route in 2006: USA (draw), Czech (win), Australia (win), Ukraine (win), Germany (win), France(penalty win)

2002 Brazil: beat China, Costa Rica and Turkey in groups, then an average Belgium, a good England, then Turkey again in semi, then Germany in Final. So 2 good sides.

1998 France: beat Denmark, Paraguay and SAudi Arabia (just), then Paraguay, Italy on pens, a decent but not top class Croatia, then Brazil (when Ronnie choked) under the pressure. Really only beat one top class side, and another on pens.

If we had beaten Croatia to reach the final and France in the final, then that would have been a fairly standard passage to the trophy. The reason people are dismissing wins against Sweden and Colombia is that we were favourites in those games.....but that goes with the territory of being in the top 5 in the world , you are favourites every game.
 
Does seem like England fans are whipping themselves up in to a fervor about Mbappe.

Be very funny if he has a really **** game.

Be very unlikely too, but you never know.
Agree about this. Feels like 86 or 02. Although in 02 we had 3 amazing forwards to worry about, not just 1-2.
 
Typical, but the mean is probably 2, maybe less if you count penalty wins as draws, which they kinda are.

I mean Italys route in 2006: USA (draw), Czech (win), Australia (win), Ukraine (win), Germany (win), France(penalty win)

2002 Brazil: beat China, Costa Rica and Turkey in groups, then an average Belgium, a good England, then Turkey again in semi, then Germany in Final. So 2 good sides.

1998 France: beat Denmark, Paraguay and SAudi Arabia (just), then Paraguay, Italy on pens, a decent but not top class Croatia, then Brazil (when Ronnie choked) under the pressure. Really only beat one top class side, and another on pens.

If we had beaten Croatia to reach the final and France in the final, then that would have been a fairly standard passage to the trophy. The reason people are dismissing wins against Sweden and Colombia is that we were favourites in those games.....but that goes with the territory of being in the top 5 in the world , you are favourites every game.

My other thought on this is that, if we'd beaten Germany in the quarter final in 2018, I don't think anyone would suggest we hadn't beaten anyone. However, Germany were rank in that tournament; they finished bottom of the group that Sweden won.

So, when the accusation of "didn't beat anyone good" is made, the accusation is more about reputation than actual quality.
 
I’m at a fecking wedding. The bride has “accepted” that people will be watching it on their phones etc apparently. So I will be one of the people pushing the boundaries further and watching it in the kitchen with the chef or whatever.

But I have two thoughts about the match:

1) shall we just sh1th0u5e them? Everyone else seems to do it these days. Portugal did it to us twice in as many tournaments. Is this the part of our game that’s always been lacking at the “business end” of major tournaments?

2) it has a distinct feel of Brazil in 2002 or maybe even Argentina in 1986, where we lost both to the eventual winners who had brilliance in the side, and it didn’t feel like we’d let ourselves down too badly (certainly not catastrophes of the Roy Hodgson mould).

However, I think if you took Mbappe out of this side we’d have nothing to fear. But that got me thinking; has Mbappe actually played that many games against “top” opposition and been successful? His club side consistently fail in the CL and he couldn’t drag France beyond the last 16 of the Euros.

Obviously he did have success against Argentina in 2018 but after that (Uruguay/Belgium/Croatia) it wasn’t the hardest run and he was very much an unknown quantity at that level at the time.

I know he’s widely accepted as the best footballer on the planet atm (though I think his game is hugely about unrivalled pace on the ball) but sometimes these mantras come too soon for players. He has never played in one of Europe’s top leagues yet either.

Is there a chance he buckles with the weight of a nation on his shoulders, and we capitalise?

We’d beat Spain btw, I think. After that, who knows.
Look, regarding Saturdays game if we can get the win I think we are really on our way to something special. Our new star is really emerging and is only going to improve and take us where we need and want to be, come on Chuba….😊
 
Just appreciate a great day of football seeing both Boro and England play on the same day is not a regular occurrence - I cannot wait.

Re the England game which is what the OP is talking about. We have no players on yellow card's and they get wiped after the Quarters so i would like to think we can push the boundaries a little and upset them.

This is a tough game, they rely on Mbappe to click but you cannot discount Griezman and Dembele - my concern is the amount of pace they have in attack and weather we can cope. I fully expect Gareth to revert to a back 3 which he has done against better opposition, this will mean Walker goes up against Mbappe which is our best hope. I hope we make the first 20-30 minutes very boring, close France down and disrupt there play as i think they will come out fast. That will give me confidence and they do give you chances, their defence is not all that.

If we do go 3 at the back, who drops out? Would he drop Henderson and play Bellingham alongside Rice or would he drop Bellingham. the latter will affect us in the switch from defence to attack but Henderson has played himself in to contention to start and i worry 4 at the back will leave us vulnerable, we saw how easy Senegal cut through in the first half.

This is the first game this World Cup that i have genuine nerves. We wont be favourites and we are playing for me the number 1 team in the world. If we win, we are serious contenders, if we lose it will still be a disappointment but i am keen to see how we perform against the best.

Either way, lets hope for a Boro and England double and plenty of sore heads on Sunday!!!!!
I’d have a scruffy horrible lucky 1-0 boro win and a 5-0 england defeat every single day of the week
 
I haven't worked this out myself, but I wonder how many "top teams" world cup winners typically beat on their way to winning the tournament?

I'd guess 3 is fairly typical. France last time, for example, beat the teams rank 4th, 5th, 17th and 18th in the world in the knockout stage.
I'd be surprised if past winners are routinely ploughing their way through the best in the field.
England have thumped the 18th, 19th and 20th ranked teams, drawn with the 16th ranked. We have the 4th ranked next then either the 9th or 22nd in the semi final as it stands...if I've got the draw correct 😁

More importantly, Billy Town need to get back to winning ways against Esh Winning.
 
Going to miss both games as will be flying to Goa. First thing I will do, after we land, will be checking the Boro result, followed by England
 
I haven't worked this out myself, but I wonder how many "top teams" world cup winners typically beat on their way to winning the tournament?

I'd guess 3 is fairly typical. France last time, for example, beat the teams rank 4th, 5th, 17th and 18th in the world in the knockout stage.
I'd be surprised if past winners are routinely ploughing their way through the best in the field.
Yeah I reckon it’s 2 or 3. Semi finals and final usually brutal, or you get a rock hard quarter and might get lucky if a surprise team make it to semis.

Even with all the shocks this time around, France - Portugal - Brazil is a brutal set of fixtures, not many easy games from the QF onwards.
 
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