Seems some fans are turning on Warnock

[indeedido]

Well not if it meant giving up our Carling Cup win, and other finals etc. My point is I’m not remotely envious, in the scheme of things, of Brentford as things stand.

Even if they go up I can imagine them being back down here within a year. And probably not in a very good financial position.

Brentford have nett asset value of £24m. Middlesbrough have nett liabilities of £85m.
Brentford owe their shareholders £59m. Middlesbrough owe our owner £116m.
If Brentford go up, their turnover will rise to a minimum of £120m in year 1. Middlesbrough will be lucky to hit £20m.
The squad values are incomparable now, let alone after a season in the top flight.
Their revenue post relegation would be x3 ours.
Their owners are wealthier and more likely to actually invest rather than guarantee against inevitable losses.
Those figures are comparable up to June 2020. The figures will have got much worse for both clubs. They had room for that, we didn't.

Norwich are just very prudently run against that top 26 strategy. They spend to an income they understand. Their owners are not rich, nor do they invest, the club has virtually no book value, but no crippling debt either.
They pay players well, but recruit with an eye on growing asset value (exact opposite to Assombolonga). They then sell what they need to bridge the gap in revenue on relegation, nett of parachute income.
Norwich's turnover last season in the PL was lower than ours was three years earlier.
Norwich and Brentford's owners could sell their clubs and make money. Gibson couldn't give Boro away.

Both clubs are immeasurably better run than Boro have been, with very different owners.

That a poxy little club like Brentford can have so changed the scales is credit to the way they are run and commentary as to ours has been.

 

[atypical_boro]

Brentford have nett asset value of £24m. Middlesbrough have nett liabilities of £85m.
Brentford owe their shareholders £59m. Middlesbrough owe our owner £116m.
If Brentford go up, their turnover will rise to a minimum of £120m in year 1. Middlesbrough will be lucky to hit £20m.
The squad values are incomparable now, let alone after a season in the top flight.
Their revenue post relegation would be x3 ours.
Their owners are wealthier and more likely to actually invest rather than guarantee against inevitable losses.
Those figures are comparable up to June 2020. The figures will have got much worse for both clubs. They had room for that, we didn't.

Norwich are just very prudently run against that top 26 strategy. They spend to an income they understand. Their owners are not rich, nor do they invest, the club has virtually no book value, but no crippling debt either.
They pay players well, but recruit with an eye on growing asset value (exact opposite to Assombolonga). They then sell what they need to bridge the gap in revenue on relegation, nett of parachute income.
Norwich's turnover last season in the PL was lower than ours was three years earlier.
Norwich and Brentford's owners could sell their clubs and make money. Gibson couldn't give Boro away.

Both clubs are immeasurably better run than Boro have been, with very different owners.

That a poxy little club like Brentford can have so changed the scales is credit to the way they are run and commentary as to ours has been.

No argument about any of that. But as things stand Brentford have no silverware, no cup finals, no seasons in the PL and no seasons in Europe. There is nothing to be envious of (yet). It is not 'inevitable' that they will go up eventually. If they don't go up this season things could easily start to fall apart, therefore I wouldn't swap places with them.

 

[bear66]

No argument about any of that. But as things stand Brentford have no silverware, no cup finals, no seasons in the PL and no seasons in Europe. There is nothing to be envious of (yet). It is not 'inevitable' that they will go up eventually. If they don't go up this season things could start to fall apart.

Does past glory have any relevance today? In some ways it's an albatross around your neck. Big clubs with the potential for big revenue will ultimately be able to buy their way back to glory. We are anything but that and need to be cleverer to succeed.

 

[indeedido]

No argument about any of that. But as things stand Brentford have no silverware, no cup finals, no seasons in the PL and no seasons in Europe. There is nothing to be envious of (yet). It is not 'inevitable' that they will go up eventually. If they don't go up this season things could start to fall apart.

I agree they have no history to warm them, but they feel like they may be more likely to create theirs than we are to add to ours.
I also agree it is not inevitable that they go up eventually, but again I think they seem more likely to go up sooner.
They could get things wrong with their spending and recruitment, not as they have actually been doing. But we already badly have.

 

[Laughing]

Which poster was it that saw the film Moneyball & then kept repeating on here/old board something like "The role of the manager is at best overstated"?

Boksic?

I am not saying the same thing at all. I am saying the long term structure at the club is more important than the manager. The manager is secondary to that and should always be. Look at what happened when pulis was here as an example of what damage a manager can do without working within a club framework and road map.

 

[atypical_boro]

Does past glory have any relevance today? In some ways it's an albatross around your neck. Big clubs with the potential for big revenue will ultimately be able to buy their way back to glory. We are anything but that and need to be cleverer to succeed.

Well I certainly wouldn't give up my experiences and memories to now be in Brentford's shoes of looking like they might win promotion but very possibly might not. Hardly inconceivable that it could be the other way round next season.

 

[atypical_boro]

I agree they have no history to warm them, but they feel like they may be more likely to create theirs than we are to add to ours.
I also agree it is not inevitable that they go up eventually, but again I think they seem more likely to go up sooner.
They could get things wrong with their spending and recruitment, not as they have actually been doing. But we already badly have.

I'm not disagreeing that Brentford are in a better position than us at this very moment in time, in terms of potential promotion etc. We've had our 'good spell' 1986-2008 and whilst things could be better here now, I wouldn't give any of that up just to be in Brentford's shoes now. They haven't come anywhere close to any of our past achievements yet. My point being that there is nothing to be envious of just yet.

 

[Capybara]

No argument about any of that. But as things stand Brentford have no silverware, no cup finals, no seasons in the PL and no seasons in Europe. There is nothing to be envious of (yet). It is not 'inevitable' that they will go up eventually. If they don't go up this season things could easily start to fall apart, therefore I wouldn't swap places with them.

I have. Brentford are not a 'poxy little club'. They are a professional football club.

 

[bear66]

Well I certainly wouldn't give up my experiences and memories to now be in Brentford's shoes of looking like they might win promotion but very possibly might not. Hardly inconceivable that it could be the other way round next season.

I'm sure Brentford fans have a lot of good memories as well and aren't envious of us at all (as I'm not envious of Liverpool or Man United).

 

[atypical_boro]

I have. Brentford are not a 'poxy little club'. They are a professional football club.

Well I was going to make the point that clubs in West London have certain advantages and we shouldn't turn our nose up at them.

 

[atypical_boro]

I'm sure Brentford fans have a lot of good memories as well and aren't envious of us at all (as I'm not envious of Liverpool or Man United).

Fine. So my point about there not being anything to be envious of stands firm then. But there are lots of posters on these pages who appear very envious of other clubs, Brentford being one of the main ones, Norwich and Wolves too. Wolves still haven't come anywhere close to what we achieved in 86-08 and I dare say they probably won't before Nuno leaves and it all starts to gradually disintegrate.

 

[atypical_boro]

I am not saying the same thing at all. I am saying the long term structure at the club is more important than the manager. The manager is secondary to that and should always be. Look at what happened when pulis was here as an example of what damage a manager can do without working within a club framework and road map.

Well the data, at least until that book was written, pointed scientifically to the idea that wage spend was way more important in terms of league position than all other factors including transfer fees, who the manager was, what the style of football was etc.

 

[Ted_DN38416]

Interesting that Gibson was there Saturday. Hopefully he pulled NW aside and said before you have your talks with the players maybe you should step into my office

 

[Laughing]

Well the data, at least until that book was written, pointed scientifically to the idea that wage spend was way more important in terms of league position than all other factors including transfer fees, who the manager was, what the style of football was etc.

A subject which I didn't touch upon atypical. In fact I think man city's wage bill is only number 4 in the prem so not sure how true that is.

My point is that the manager is not nearly as important as the long term road map that comes from the chairman. In fact, as I said earlier, providing the manager is competent they won't have much effect either good or bad because they will be following a long term plan

 

[atypical_boro]

A subject which I didn't touch upon atypical. In fact I think man city's wage bill is only number 4 in the prem so not sure how true that is.

My point is that the manager is not nearly as important as the long term road map that comes from the chairman. In fact, as I said earlier, providing the manager is competent they won't have much effect either good or bad because they will be following a long term plan

There will be anomalies, and there may have been changes since the book was written, but it was also about a specific time period (not necessarily just the current season). Mind you, I'm surprised they're number 4 even just this season.

 

[indeedido]

I have. Brentford are not a 'poxy little club'. They are a professional football club.

Get off your high horse.
Brentford have been a poxy little club until recent years with the change of ownership, strategy and performance. I was complimenting them for their performance...and potential.

 

[BoroMart]

I’ve said for a while we need a proper captain. Don’t think we’ve had one since the promotion season. Leadbitter wasn’t a regular in the Prem or the following Monk/Pulis season and I don’t think you can underestimate the value of a leader on the pitch.

agreed, we lack true inspirational leadership and organisation. A manager and tactician on the pitch.

A captain should always be a centre back or central midfielder for me. It's part of the reason why I don't see McNair or Howson as being first teamers in a succesful side. They're too passive as characters.

 

[BoroMart]

My point is that the manager is not nearly as important as the long term road map that comes from the chairman. In fact, as I said earlier, providing the manager is competent they won't have much effect either good or bad because they will be following a long term plan

Football is run amateurishly and has been for a very long time. The executives should set strategy, define the company/club vision and culture. The execs should have enough knowledge of the football environment to make good strategic decisions. It shouldn't just be money men, it should have people that are knowledgeable about the football business, about business strategy and about people and culture.

Management should exist to implement that strategy and philosophy. Managers manage assets (players) to the guidelines of strategy (the clubs football philosophy) with the aim of achieving value (promotion and sustained top flight football).

Proper business concepts should be ported to run a club, instead of the amateur behaviour most clubs follow. People, products, process, and partners should all be considered when looking at the product/service that is a successful first team.

People - having the right people in the right roles in the club, be it at executive level, management, youth coaching and playing staff. They should ALL align to the club vision or 'football philosophy'. If people are brought in that don't align, and don't want to align, cut your loss and get them out.

Products - the assets that we use to develop and deliver that first team, be it player analysis software, training equipment, physiotherapy rooms. Should all align with the philosophy and don't skimp on this.

Process - what's the process for identifying and scouting players, what measureable data is available? what is the process for developing kids to first team players, what curriculum is used to train and how is it measured? What is the process for ensuring players are either committed to long term contracts or sold at high point in their value? This should all be repeatable and not just decided based on 10 good games or 10 bad ones.

Partners - what football technologies partners do we use? what about player education on healthy habits? External sports psychologists? Lower League teams where we can regularly send players for loans, to test them in mens football. We should be sending groups of our kids to Hartlepool for training sessions, in pre-season, give them the chance train against men and the chance of a loan.

All the above is why some clubs have continued success and others lurch from success to failure. We continue to run as we do and we will continue to under achieve.

 

[WoodallServices]

Brentford have nett asset value of £24m. Middlesbrough have nett liabilities of £85m.
Brentford owe their shareholders £59m. Middlesbrough owe our owner £116m.
If Brentford go up, their turnover will rise to a minimum of £120m in year 1. Middlesbrough will be lucky to hit £20m.
The squad values are incomparable now, let alone after a season in the top flight.
Their revenue post relegation would be x3 ours.
Their owners are wealthier and more likely to actually invest rather than guarantee against inevitable losses.
Those figures are comparable up to June 2020. The figures will have got much worse for both clubs. They had room for that, we didn't.

Norwich are just very prudently run against that top 26 strategy. They spend to an income they understand. Their owners are not rich, nor do they invest, the club has virtually no book value, but no crippling debt either.
They pay players well, but recruit with an eye on growing asset value (exact opposite to Assombolonga). They then sell what they need to bridge the gap in revenue on relegation, nett of parachute income.
Norwich's turnover last season in the PL was lower than ours was three years earlier.
Norwich and Brentford's owners could sell their clubs and make money. Gibson couldn't give Boro away.

Both clubs are immeasurably better run than Boro have been, with very different owners.

That a poxy little club like Brentford can have so changed the scales is credit to the way they are run and commentary as to ours has been.

Having read this I certainly have misgivings about us leaving Warnock in charge for one season bearing in mind whoever follows him would mean we’d have another rebuild on our hands. All well and good if he takes us up......but that’s a big IF looking at those figures!

 

[atomicloonybin aka ALB]

We lurch from strategy to strategy, that’s the issue. Sack Monk but bring Pulis in, 2 completely different styles. Then back to another style, sack Woodgate then bring Warnock in

Quite. And that's why we ended up with a £14m and a £7m albatross round our neck until now. I don't believe Monk was sacked for football reasons, but to try to build a team round Britt whatever his success or failings, then abandon that after a few months and then double down and keep him for four years was rank stupidity. We should have sold him in the summer and allowed Pulis to bring in Jon Stead or whoever but I assume getting say £8m for him would have looked idiotic, as opposed to paying him a fortune and letting him go on a free which apparently is a genius move.

What if Warnock brings in a bunch of players that he likes, is out after a bad run, and the next shiny manager decided he wants to play in a different style, again. The club, the chairman, the fans - we have no patience and that's why we end up here.

We finished 13 points off the playoffs and a whopping 27 off the automatics. We need a miraculous off season and an excellent start to next season.