Repeat after me ‘bald, fraud’

atypical_boro said:
You've misunderstood my point. What I was saying is that domestic cups aren't enough and are largely irrelevant. Had they won 0 league titles in this 5 years and a plethora of League Cups he wouldn't have lasted this long. Its all about the PL and the CL, no one judges managers by League Cups anymore, certainly not at that level with that amount spent.

This season he's done well to get the title back and he will have done well to win the CL if they do.

Best manager ever, or of his generation? He's got to win the CL this season (or at least before he leaves) in my opinion. Yes the bar is high because being called the best manager of a generation is a high bar.

"they have no right just to beat Lyon last year" - no idea what this means. So they have no right to win it so he shouldn't be judged on it? How does that work? Woodgate had no 'right' to win any of his games so maybe we should have kept him? Don't get that at all.

Up until now his European record at City has been poor. Sorry but that's a fact.
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Alex Ferguson's European record at Utd was hardly great. 2 CL wins in 27 seasons. Are you suggesting he wasn't a world class manager?

Is that how you're deemed to be a world class manager, winning the CL? Because Pep has already won it twice...

And who said he's the best manager ever or of his generation?

3 PL wins in 5 seasons is a great record when you look at the power of the other clubs - Utd have spent similar amounts. Liverpool have broken transfer records, Chelsea always spend money....It's hardly the French or Scottish league where there's no competition.
 
Malaguena said:
Give over ! - compared to the Real Madrid, Juventus, Barcelona, Bayern, Scousers, Man U's of this world .... absolutely horrible clubs with a massive sense of entitlement and ego.

Yes, City might have bought their success, but I find them them the most likeable (OK, maybe least objectionable) of the "big" clubs
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Your opinion, no one has said you're not entitled to it.
 
Malaguena said:
Give over ! - compared to the Real Madrid, Juventus, Barcelona, Bayern, Scousers, Man U's of this world .... absolutely horrible clubs with a massive sense of entitlement and ego.

Yes, City might have bought their success, but I find them them the most likeable (OK, maybe least objectionable) of the "big" clubs
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Can't agree with this enough! All those named clubs except probably Bayern are a disgrace and their fans expect everything.

The City fans who I know and speak to are quite humble. Nowhere near anything like Utd fans.
 
Marvanelli said:
Can't agree with this enough! All those named clubs except probably Bayern are a disgrace and their fans expect everything.

The City fans who I know and speak to are quite humble. Nowhere near anything like Utd fans.
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Ha ok, so we have different experiences with City fans. Fair?
 
Marvanelli said:
Alex Ferguson's European record at Utd was hardly great. 2 CL wins in 27 seasons. Are you suggesting he wasn't a world class manager?

Is that how you're deemed to be a world class manager, winning the CL? Because Pep has already won it twice...

And who said he's the best manager ever or of his generation?

3 PL wins in 5 seasons is a great record when you look at the power of the other clubs - Utd have spent similar amounts. Liverpool have broken transfer records, Chelsea always spend money....It's hardly the French or Scottish league where there's no competition.
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Ferguson's European record was only decent, it wasn't amazing and it took him quite a while to get to grips with the Champions League after the Heysel ban and English-based players' lack of experience in it. He was a fantastic domestic manager. World class? Well he is the best manager the PL has ever seen, but he wasn't the best manager Europe has ever seen and if he'd desperately wanted to prove himself as that he'd have gone to Real/Barca etc like Jose and Pep have done.

Pep is a world class manager and I've never said otherwise. What I've repeatedly said is that if he wants to settle the debate about whether he's one of the best of all-time he needs to win the CL at City. You don't agree? That's fine.

I have never called him a fraud or said he isn't a good manager.

FWIW my biggest problem with City, far more so than their fans, and as I've said repeatedly on here is 'sportswashing'. Its dangerous to our society. I couldn't care less about the Glazers using United to service their debt. I don't like it from a football perspective as such but morally speaking it isn't on the same scale.
 
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atypical_boro said:
Ferguson's European record was only decent, it wasn't amazing and it took him quite a while to get to grips with the Champions League after the Heysel ban and English-based players' lack of experience in it. He was a fantastic domestic manager. World class? Well he is the best manager the PL has ever seen, but he wasn't the best manager Europe has ever seen and if he'd desperately wanted to prove himself as that he'd have gone to Real/Barca etc like Jose and Pep have done.

Pep is a world class manager and I've never said otherwise. What I've repeatedly said is that if he wants to settle the debate about whether he's one of the best of all-time he needs to win the CL at City. You don't agree? That's fine.
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Whether he wins the CL at City or not doesn't change my opinion of him being one of the best managers of all time.

The way in which he changed football with his Barcelona team and revolutionised football was incredible. I don't think we'll ever see a more complete football team than his Barcelona 2008-2012. It was simply breathtaking to watch.

And then his CV wherever he goes is pretty much flawless. He wins the league everywhere he goes, and not only wins it, he destroys the records in those leagues. Goals scores, points won, etc.

If he wins the CL at City then he's just confirming even more so his position as one of the best managers ever.
 
Marvanelli said:
Whether he wins the CL at City or not doesn't change my opinion of him being one of the best managers of all time.

The way in which he changed football with his Barcelona team and revolutionised football was incredible. I don't think we'll ever see a more complete football team than his Barcelona 2008-2012. It was simply breathtaking to watch.

And then his CV wherever he goes is pretty much flawless. He wins the league everywhere he goes, and not only wins it, he destroys the records in those leagues. Goals scores, points won, etc.

If he wins the CL at City then he's just confirming even more so his position as one of the best managers ever.
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Your opinion that's fine.

I always think he inherited a great setup/squad from Rijkaard and in my opinion he has to go that one further. He is well on the way to becoming one of or 'the' best of all-time.

He should have won it at Bayern though. ;)
 
atypical_boro said:
Anywhere where is Pog these days? I'm assuming the OP was mostly aimed at him.

I did note that Col called Pep 'clueless' on that thread back in August. :) ;)
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We all know by now he goes hiding whenever Pep is pulling up trees.

His hatred of Pep runs deep so he'll no doubt be seething.
 
atypical_boro said:
if he'd desperately wanted to prove himself as that he'd have gone to Real/Barca etc like Jose and Pep have done.
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In what way is going to Real and Barca proving yourself?
Between them, those two clubs have won virtually everything in Spain, whoever is their manager.

He won the top titles in the world at Manchester United, and turned them in to the dominant force in this country, when he joined they hadn't won a league title since 1967, he won 13 in 20 years, he proved himself here.
 
TeaCider said:
In what way is going to Real and Barca proving yourself?
Between them, those two clubs have won virtually everything in Spain, whoever is their manager.

He won the top titles in the world at Manchester United, and turned them in to the dominant force in this country, when he joined they hadn't won a league title since 1967, he won 13 in 20 years, he proved himself here.
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He also won the European cup with Aberdeen.

But of course, winning the CL with either of Barcelona/Real means more....
 
The guy is great at what he does.

That said, I think he's openly admitted that his methods might not work with lower quality players. I don't think he has sufficient flexibility in his style to adapt to a club where he doesn't have top players and a massive budget. You may well ask why he'd want to, fair enough. However, a great manager can adapt to the circumstances that he finds himself in, and Pep has never been in a situation when that has been required.

I don't blame him for this, but he is the poster boy for a lot of the playing out from the back nonsense we see now. When it's done by average players, it's as unattractive as catenaccio or long ball football. It's not that style that has made Pep successful: it's that style combined with the players to play that way. If the mediocrities trying to ape the style think it will make them better teams, they should think again.
 
You can have all the money in the world and all the best players, you still have to coach them correctly. An example of how that might not be so straight forward was the PSG players imploding with ill discipline towards the end of last night.
 
TeaCider said:
In what way is going to Real and Barca proving yourself?
Between them, those two clubs have won virtually everything in Spain, whoever is their manager.

He won the top titles in the world at Manchester United, and turned them in to the dominant force in this country, when he joined they hadn't won a league title since 1967, he won 13 in 20 years, he proved himself here.
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Well quite simply here are my thoughts.

Ferguson is the best PL manager ever. Pep is not (yet). Neither can claim to be the best manager in European football either as things stand. Pep may be on the brink of that soon though.

Had Ferguson also wanted to be deemed the best manager in Europe he'd have had to test himself elsewhere like Pep/Jose/Klopp/Ancelotti/Capello etc have all done, in my opinion. Barca/Real were just examples of clubs he could have tested himself at. Winning the league and CL at more than one club in more than one country is not an easy thing to do and for me it is the true test of an elite manager.

That doesn't mean Ferguson isn't the best PL manager of all-time though.

Just my opinion lads!
 
Marvanelli said:
The City fans who I know and speak to are quite humble. Nowhere near anything like Utd fans.
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I have to say this is my experience also

Edit : but just to add, the Manchester based Man U fans I know are actually OK - it's the plastics that are insufferable
 
atypical_boro said:
No but the CWC is not the same level and never was.
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Agree it isn't.

But personally I think winning the CWC with Aberdeen is a much more impressive achievement than winning a CL with either of Real/Barca.

And as for 'testing yourself at Barca/Real' - that IMO is not a test. How many times has league been won by one of those teams?

It's like saying going to Scotland as manager of Celtic or Rangers is testing yourself at becoming one of the greatest managers of all time.
 
atypical_boro said:
Exactly this. When he came in nobody was saying 'Oh I wonder if Pep can bring a league title or two to the Etihad'. City fans expect to win it at least every other season given the money. 3 out of 5 is a good return but its not over and above their wildest dreams. They got rid of Pellegrini cos he'd gone more than one season without it, even though they progressed in the CL.
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The club have always states that premier league is the most important trophy
How many clubs in English football have won 3 leagues in 5 seasons. Only Man Utd in prem era
 
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