Rehabilitation for everyone?

Up until I knew a family bereaved by (cold-blooded, brutal and senseless) murder, I took the classic comfortable liberal position on this issue. Since then I have asked similar questions to the OP: Why is the murderer alive when the sweet brilliant father he bludgeoned to death, who helped so many others, lost his life, and devastated his loved ones, forever? Moreover, the family are haunted by the possibility that the man may one day be released.

Now, I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, the cold mechanical killing of people by the state seems morally empty and insufficient somehow - better, in a way, to let them rot. On the other hand, the taking of a life, when seen close up, is such a heinous act, that murderers ought to beg to be relieved from the perpetual remorse - and if they have no remorse why should we have any for their lives?

But if you were going to have a death penalty (that would have to carry a democratic mandate), I would make it so that everyone who voted for one was eligible to be required to carry out the execution - and if they refused be liable for an automatic prison sentence of two years. If we are going to sanction mob blood lust (because that is, in effect, what it is) then there has to be some jeopardy to it.
 
amazingly it costs more in legal fees and the costs of putting them down than it does to keep them in jail, or thats what the crack is in America, with death penalties its not just loose your case, take your sentence, its endless appeals and stays of execution because they have to make sure that they are legally correct to go ahead with it.
Whereas when people get a life sentence, they just get on with it, no endless appeals there too? 😜
 
If we brought back capital punishment then in no time at all an innocent person would end up being executed.

How would all the people advocating the death penalty feel being on death row for a crime they didn't commit? Would it be a case of oh well, at least I know the vast majority of people here really deserve it?

Mistakes happen all the time in evidence gathering, procedures, labs. It is nailed on that there would be a failure somewhere and some poor innocent person would get executed.
 
There's a third reason public safety & protection they can't offend against children if they are behind bars. For that reason serial sex offenders like glitter and Harris should be locked up for life or at least serve a heavier full sentence with no halving of sentences for good behaviour.
Yep, that's the obvious one actually isn't it. Removing someone from society as they're a threat.
 
Broadening out the discussion.
Where does that lead us to?
Who decides who or what is a threat?
We already have a law which means you can be arrested on the grounds that you might be intending to commit an offence - not having commited one.
What happens to the forces of the state when an innocent person is killed?
Does the law apply to those forces or are they exempt?
Would the same law apply to any British citizen who committed murder abroad?
 
Whereas when people get a life sentence, they just get on with it, no endless appeals there too? 😜
no where near on the same level, for death sentence (this in America btw as we don't have it) they will appeal on your behalf even if you don't and there is many appeals before its done, and there is many more lines of appeal than there is for a life sentence
 

This is an absolute scandal.​

--------------------​

Murderer was left free to kill after probation blunders​

Violent offender who went on to kill Terri Harris and children John Bennett, Lacey Bennett and Connie Gent classed as ‘medium risk’

ByJack Hardy, CRIME CORRESPONDENT22 December 2022 • 9:30pm

Lacey Bennett, Connie Gent and John Paul Bennett

Lacey Bennett, Connie Gent and John Paul Bennett were killed by Damien Bendall at a house in Derbyshire
A multiple child murderer was left free to kill after “appalling” blunders by the Probation Service, The Telegraph can reveal.
Damien Bendall, 32, was given a whole-life sentence this week for killing three children and his pregnant partner with a hammer in Killamarsh, Derbyshire, last September, three months after receiving a suspended sentence for arson.
It can now be disclosed that a probation officer who assessed Bendall’s record for the sentencing judge in the arson case has been sacked for gross misconduct after miscategorising him as “medium risk” rather than “high risk”.
Probation officials believe it is unlikely that Bendall – who had a history of violent offending – would have been free to carry out one of the most grotesque child murder rampages in recent decades if the pre-sentence report had accurately reflected his risk.
The probation officer in question is understood to have spent a lot of time working from home, meaning other members of the team did not get the usual opportunities to offer advice on or read the report.
Advertisement

Bendall’s probation supervision was subsequently passed from Swindon, where the arson took place, to the East Midlands, where another officer has separately been found guilty of misconduct for allocating his case to a trainee.
The catalogue of errors has prompted the Ministry of Justice to order the Chief Inspector of Probation to carry out a full review of the case, which sources said is likely to be released in the new year.

The revelations raise fresh questions about the adequacy of Britain’s Probation Service after a report in September found that around 500 serious offences a year were being committed by offenders under supervision.
The agency has also been beset by high-profile scandals including that of Joseph McCann, who went on a rampage of sexual violence across the country while under supervision, and Usman Khan, a terrorist who murdered two people in Fishmongers’ Hall, London, while being monitored.
Sir Robert Buckland, who served as justice secretary until three days before the Killamarsh killings, told The Telegraph on Thursday night: “I think we have to acknowledge that such an error is just an appalling failure.
“The ministry has to be as open and transparent as possible about why it happened, and most importantly to make sure the risk of that happening again is kept to a minimum, if not eliminated.
“Frankly, there should be processes in place that means various thresholds and tests would be met before that sort of fundamental mistake could be made.”
Sir Mike Penning, another former justice secretary, said: “People’s lives have been lost because the system has failed them. The probation officer’s pre-sentencing report has failed them, the system has failed them.”

Some staff ‘looked for shortcuts’​

Sources told The Telegraph that probation officers are required to spend eight or nine hours entering details into the convoluted Offender Assessment System (Oasys) to calculate an offender’s risk, leading some staff to “look for shortcuts”.
The officer who prepared the pre-sentence report in Swindon failed to access all the background information about Bendall and consequently did not enter crucial details into the Oasys system, it is understood.
A probation source said: “The risk assessment came out lower than it should have been. He should have been flagged as ‘high risk of harm’ but he was graded ‘medium risk’ instead. As a result, he was allocated to a trainee – it wouldn’t have happened if he’d been ‘high risk’.”
To make matters worse, the source added that probation officers in the Swindon region at the time were not allowed to recommend custody in their pre-sentence reports.
A probation inspection of the region in July last year found that “well over half of the reports we inspected did not draw on all available sources of information”.
Bendall was allowed to return to the home of his partner, Terri Harris, in Killamarsh on the condition that he wore an electronic tag and regularly met the trainee probation officer.
His trial heard, however, that he had been using drugs heavily and was fuelled by cocaine when he bludgeoned to death Ms Harris, her children John Bennett, 13, Lacey Bennett, 11, and Lacey’s friend Connie Gent, also 11, who was sleeping over.
Bendall raped Lacey as she lay dying before taking a taxi to Sheffield to exchange John’s Xbox for more drugs.
Damien Bendall

Damien Bendall was miscategorised as ‘medium risk’ rather than ‘high risk’ CREDIT: Derbyshire Constabulary/PA
Sources said the supervisor found guilty of misconduct in the East Midlands had not done all the background reading into Bendall before allocating his case to a trainee.
A more experienced probation officer would have been better equipped to spot possible signs of his spiralling drug use and any concerning patterns of behaviour.
The supervisor is understood to be appealing against the findings of misconduct, as they had responsibility for overseeing around 30 officers because of staff shortages in the region. The individual did not lose their job.
A Ministry of Justice spokesman said: “These were appalling crimes, and our thoughts remain with the victims’ families. The Deputy Prime Minister asked the Chief Inspector of Probation to conduct a review of this case, and we will respond further once this is published.”
The Government invested in an extra 1,000 trainee probation officers in 2020, followed by a further 1,500 the following year in a move designed to ease caseloads on individual officers and manage the risk of offenders more effectively.
It is hoped an additional 1,500 officers will be recruited by March next year.
 
This is key in that report above:

"Sources(?) said the supervisor found guilty of misconduct in the East Midlands had not done all the background reading into Bendall before allocating his case to a trainee.
A more experienced probation officer would have been better equipped to spot possible signs of his spiralling drug use and any concerning patterns of behaviour."

There is an issue now about why the Probation "service" has fragmented, as some services have been contracted out [privatised], including the monitoring of offenders [by private companies and other organisations]. There are staff shortages in the Probation Service following successive cuts by Central Government. The situation outlined above highlights how appropriate is informed risk management, regular monitoring, practitioner and Management accountability and appropriate staffing levels. In some instances "monitoring" means a telephone call.
 
This is key in that report above:

"Sources(?) said the supervisor found guilty of misconduct in the East Midlands had not done all the background reading into Bendall before allocating his case to a trainee.
A more experienced probation officer would have been better equipped to spot possible signs of his spiralling drug use and any concerning patterns of behaviour."

There is an issue now about why the Probation "service" has fragmented, as services have been contracted out [privatised], including the monitoring of offenders [by private companies and other organisations]. There are staff shortages in the Probation Service following successive cuts by Central Government. The situation outlined above highlights how approrpiate is informed risk management, regular monitoring, practitioner and Management accountability and appropriate staffing levels. In some instances "monitoring" means a telephone call.

As Jacob Rees-Mogg would say, it's been made more "efficient". 🤬
 
This may be useful to further understand key issues in the Probation Service:

Press Release 13/04/2022

Napo repeats demand for public inquiry into the probation service​

[Extract]

Embargo: Immediate Release

Union repeats demand for public inquiry into the probation service

Napo, the Trade Union and Professional Association representing workers in the Probation Service and Family Courts today repeated its call for a public enquiry on the state of the Probation Service in England and Wales.This follows the broadcast of a BBC Radio 4 documentary airing tonight entitled “Licence to Kill?”. This production highlights the anguish of the parents of two separate victims of murders committed by individuals who were being supervised by the Probation Service, and their respective campaigns for answers and accountability. This will be available on BBC sounds tomorrow.
The BBC have claimed that over 500 other serious further offences (a serious violent or sexual offence committed by a person subject to probation supervision) have been recorded between 2014 and the present day.......

...........Ian Lawrence says: “It is simply not sustainable for probation staff to continue in this current crisis with dangerously high workloads without the public being at risk of serious further offending. It is inevitable that under this extreme work pressure, mistakes will be made and the public and our members will be the ones most affected.”

The union is calling for urgent Ministerial intervention for probation, a detailed plan of how this crisis can be resolved, a full public enquiry into how the probation service has been allowed to fall into such disarray and what impact that has had on public safety.

Full article can be read here>>>>>>https://www.napo.org.uk/napo-repeats-demand-public-inquiry-probation-service
 
The board has discussed this before.
Cost of living crisis has asked more questions.
Can someone explain why this evil monster still gets to carry on living his pointless life at the cost of the taxpayer? He's never going to be release and rightly so.

There's an old saying in legal circles, "Extreme cases make bad law." The trouble is, if you have the death penalty for murder, some innocent people are going to end up being executed. You can't have a law that says, "We're only going to have the death penalty when we're absolutely sure that the person convicted definitely did it, and/or they've confessed and/or the crime is a particularly heinous one."

For instance even if you framed it in such a way, you'd still have some innocent people being put to death. The Birmingham six and the Guildford four, for example.
 
Last edited:
I’ll say it again the two most notorious murderers in the UK

shipman and west

Both chose to end it themselves with the noose over life in prison.

what does that tell you.
 
This may be useful to further understand key issues in the Probation Service:

Press Release 13/04/2022

Napo repeats demand for public inquiry into the probation service​

[Extract]

Embargo: Immediate Release

Union repeats demand for public inquiry into the probation service

Napo, the Trade Union and Professional Association representing workers in the Probation Service and Family Courts today repeated its call for a public enquiry on the state of the Probation Service in England and Wales.This follows the broadcast of a BBC Radio 4 documentary airing tonight entitled “Licence to Kill?”. This production highlights the anguish of the parents of two separate victims of murders committed by individuals who were being supervised by the Probation Service, and their respective campaigns for answers and accountability. This will be available on BBC sounds tomorrow.
The BBC have claimed that over 500 other serious further offences (a serious violent or sexual offence committed by a person subject to probation supervision) have been recorded between 2014 and the present day.......

...........Ian Lawrence says: “It is simply not sustainable for probation staff to continue in this current crisis with dangerously high workloads without the public being at risk of serious further offending. It is inevitable that under this extreme work pressure, mistakes will be made and the public and our members will be the ones most affected.”

The union is calling for urgent Ministerial intervention for probation, a detailed plan of how this crisis can be resolved, a full public enquiry into how the probation service has been allowed to fall into such disarray and what impact that has had on public safety.

Full article can be read here>>>>>>https://www.napo.org.uk/napo-repeats-demand-public-inquiry-probation-service
It's the same across all services where public protection and health are concerned, the government axed funding over a decade ago, the net result being that organisations become dysfunctional and inefficient, workloads increase, people make mistakes and here's an example. There's no vested interest because there's no money to make

And to complete the not so virtuous circle, the government will then call the said organisation out for the failings.
 
If it was clear cut like this yes of course
Again, at the time of their convictions (and for many years after) it seemed clear cut that the Birmingham six were guilty. Same for the Guildford four.

The police had presented overwhelming evidence against them, and they had confessed to absolutely horrendous multiple murders.
 
A Friend, his family came originally from Nigeria, said he was told by his grandmother that among some tribal groups before the English or anyone else arrived. Those who committed murder, and or sexual crimes against children were taken before nightfall out into the bush. There waiting for them were the women of the group. The next morning, his remains were left for the animals to feed on.
 
It's the same across all services where public protection and health are concerned, the government axed funding over a decade ago, the net result being that organisations become dysfunctional and inefficient, workloads increase, people make mistakes and here's an example. There's no vested interest because there's no money to make

And to complete the not so virtuous circle, the government will then call the said organisation out for the failings.
Agree entirely (y)
Chris Grayling part-privatised the Probation Service in 2014, but then had to bring it back into Public Ownership. However, the Management of the Service, funding cuts, huge caseloads, shedding experienced staff and severely reduced community support facilities and organisations [due to government cut] - has reduced the service to a skeleton. This ultimately puts the public to increased risk of potential harm, because the service isnt fit to do its job. [Sounds familiar?].
 
Agree entirely (y)
Chris Grayling part-privatised the Probation Service in 2014, but then had to bring it back into Public Ownership. However, the Management of the Service, funding cuts, huge caseloads, shedding experienced staff and severely reduced community support facilities and organisations [due to government cut] - has reduced the service to a skeleton. This ultimately puts the public to increased risk of potential harm, because the service isnt fit to do its job. [Sounds familiar?].
Yep, I saw the outsourcing of large parts of the Probabtion Sevice and it was very predictably a slow moving train wreck that had to be reversed.

The notion that public protection should be measured on a 'payments by results' approach was, is and always will be idiocy and ultimately dangerous.
 
Yep, I saw the outsourcing of large parts of the Probabtion Sevice and it was very predictably a slow moving train wreck that had to be reversed.

The notion that public protection should be measured on a 'payments by results' approach was, is and always will be idiocy and ultimately dangerous.
Are you in the service?
We used to have liaison through MDT`s for 37/41`s and other high risk forensic clients.
 
Back
Top