One doctors view of the Thursday applause.

Laughing

Well-known member
#21
Based on this thread you wouldn’t know my political stand point. Criticising a story with no name in a paper desperate to score political points doesn’t make you a Tory. Most see it that way on here though.

Like it how criticising the story is contributing nothing though. You are contributing to the app thread and it hasn’t been scrapped but stating it has (despite being told that) is that a labour shill?

don’t lower yourself to comments such as “you know what you are” I can post despite the wave of criticism and sometimes abuse coming other way without resorting to that. Tends to be a feature though from some who are supposed to be the “friendly ones”
Again not adding to the debate. On the T & T app I gave many posts previously as to why it was poorly engineered from a privacy and architectural perspective. So yes I added to the debate. Criticism without meaningful contribution is just that, criticism and it offers nothing if that is all you do, and that, as far as I can see, is all you do.
 

Alvez_48

Well-known member
#22
I have no issue with this doctor’s opinion, or with The Guardian for publishing it, but I do think he’s mistaken regarding its political importance. He rightly raises real issues that need to be addressed in our country’s funding and approach to the NHS, but tackling those and showing our appreciation for NHS and other key workers are not mutually exclusive.

In the current climate, it’s unthinkable that even a Tory government would propose any further privatisation of the NHS in the coming years. It’s also unimaginable that, even with the likely state of the public finances, further rounds of austerity and public sector pay freezes would be acceptable.

Governments tend to do as much as they think the electorate will let them get away with. The people of this country are sending them a weekly reminder that they treasure the NHS and its staff extremely highly.

You say that but:-

As we go to press [May 14th] The Lowdown has also seen a letter from NHS England’s London Regional Director Sir David Sloman, sent out internally on April 29 but not published, requiring Integrated Care System Chairs and Senior Responsible Officers to take “urgent action” on system plans for London that “fundamentally change the way we deliver health and care.”

Each ICS is ordered to supply a “revised ICS plan” by Monday May 11. The letter spells out a 12-point list of issues on which bureaucrats in each area are supposed to devise new policy, on the hoof, for a “Recovery Board” meeting on May 13.

Even if the country was not on lockdown, this 12-day turn-round period for proposals on fundamental changes for a New Health and Care system for London, to be in place by November 2021, would indicate a complete disregard for any serious consultation or discussion.

But it’s clear from the way this is being done that any notion of public engagement or accountability is a very low priority afterthought. The accompanying Powerpoint presentation entitled ‘Journey to a New Health and Care System’ states that over the next 12-15 months they hope to keep public engagement to a bare minimum: “Include public and stakeholders in the process within the constraints of an emergency”.

It proposes mergers of admin and clinical support services, implying job losses, and a focus on getting people out of hospital as soon as possible – but with no details on how they should be supported after that.
 

Erimus74

Well-known member
#23
Brilliant.... straight out the “I’m a doctor and listen to this” posts that go round on Facebook about falsifying death certificate with Covid 19.

Awful form from the guardian (not surprising though) where as many doctors and nurses (names given) happily accept the applause each week. Along with key workers who it’s for too. Pathetic from the guardian
Couldnt agree more, I wonder why we haven't got a balanced view point of a doctor that's blown away because of the applause, I suppose that wouldnt sit right with some folk

Well roll on 20:00 hours I'll be clapping for all the NHS, care workers, volunteers & ensebtial workers 👏
 
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1finny

Well-known member
#24
Erimus - I’ve seen tons of doctor’s and nurses say they are grateful for the applause.
It seems there is a lot of sensitivity when one of them (I’ve heard other’s too) question it.
 
#25
You say that but:-

As we go to press [May 14th] The Lowdown has also seen a letter from NHS England’s London Regional Director Sir David Sloman, sent out internally on April 29 but not published, requiring Integrated Care System Chairs and Senior Responsible Officers to take “urgent action” on system plans for London that “fundamentally change the way we deliver health and care.”

Each ICS is ordered to supply a “revised ICS plan” by Monday May 11. The letter spells out a 12-point list of issues on which bureaucrats in each area are supposed to devise new policy, on the hoof, for a “Recovery Board” meeting on May 13.

Even if the country was not on lockdown, this 12-day turn-round period for proposals on fundamental changes for a New Health and Care system for London, to be in place by November 2021, would indicate a complete disregard for any serious consultation or discussion.

But it’s clear from the way this is being done that any notion of public engagement or accountability is a very low priority afterthought. The accompanying Powerpoint presentation entitled ‘Journey to a New Health and Care System’ states that over the next 12-15 months they hope to keep public engagement to a bare minimum: “Include public and stakeholders in the process within the constraints of an emergency”.

It proposes mergers of admin and clinical support services, implying job losses, and a focus on getting people out of hospital as soon as possible – but with no details on how they should be supported after that.

These ICS things aren't new. They have already begun in some regions. The job losses you mention will probably happen but people are always saying we have too much admin and managers in the NHS (which isn't true, it's the opposite if anything). The point of an ICS is that we waste so much time and money on fighting over commissioning budgets and it doesn't make sense for the NHS to be fighting the council for funds when they would both be better off making joint decisions. It is a failing of the internal market and siloing the NHS and social care. It makes sense that they are integrated as they are part of the same system. E.g. It's pointless funding the NHS if the social system causes more incoming and can't take the outgoing.
 
#26
What is the debate? If it’s about NHS funding and the applause why you need to link some story? You could have raised that yourself if you agree. The story you linked i think is poor therefore left open to me to criticise. If the point of that left thread was the story then me criticising how weak it is is adding to the debate.

See Erimus agrees therefore my points have added a contribution in his eyes. Your not the only Person who deems what is worthwhile
 

Erimus74

Well-known member
#27
Erimus - I’ve seen tons of doctor’s and nurses say they are grateful for the applause.
It seems there is a lot of sensitivity when one of them (I’ve heard other’s too) question it.
So why do we have to go through this ritual every week, if people don't want to clap then don't, I can't see the point in trying to prove a point to not clapping, I totally agree this government has messed up badly & hopefully it's not brushed under the carpet when normality resumes & questions are asked, but as I said at the beginning, don't clap then,
 
#28
Based on this thread you wouldn’t know my political stand point. Criticising a story with no name in a paper desperate to score political points doesn’t make you a Tory. Most see it that way on here though.

Like it how criticising the story is contributing nothing though. You are contributing to the app thread and it hasn’t been scrapped but stating it has (despite being told that) is that a labour shill?

don’t lower yourself to comments such as “you know what you are” I can post despite the wave of criticism and sometimes abuse coming other way without resorting to that. Tends to be a feature though from some who are supposed to be the “friendly ones”
Always thought you were a bit of a commie Coops!
 

1finny

Well-known member
#32
So why do we have to go through this ritual every week, if people don't want to clap then don't, I can't see the point in trying to prove a point to not clapping, I totally agree this government has messed up badly & hopefully it's not brushed under the carpet when normality resumes & questions are asked, but as I said at the beginning, don't clap then,
I agree Erimus. I was responding to the point we only ever hear from disgruntled medics. It’s just not true
 

Erimus74

Well-known member
#33
I agree Erimus. I was responding to the point we only ever hear from disgruntled medics. It’s just not true
I know I get a bit sensative over this issue & it's not personnel to you, as I said before I never once consider the government for one second during my 2 minutes applause followed by a 10 minute chat to my neighbours, of which one or two are elderly
 

1finny

Well-known member
#35
I know I get a bit sensative over this issue & it's not personnel to you, as I said before I never once consider the government for one second during my 2 minutes applause followed by a 10 minute chat to my neighbours, of which one or two are elderly
I bet they say the neighbour who chats to them is elderly too :)
 

RandySavage

Well-known member
#38
The problem is - it has become habit now for many.
Don’t want to be seen not to do it - ‘what will the neighbours think’
Make sure you film it and post it on your social media accounts aswell.
Or go further, dress up in fancy dress running up and down the street outside the house.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
#39
The doctor, assuming he is real, of course, was simply making a valid point that the NHS needs more than applause both today and in the long term.
 
#40
I know I get a bit sensative over this issue & it's not personnel to you, as I said before I never once consider the government for one second during my 2 minutes applause followed by a 10 minute chat to my neighbours, of which one or two are elderly
I think that's the same for the majority of people erimus. There are those who will applaud, those who choose not to, and plenty who will be seen to over politicise a simple event.
I don't think by choosing to applaud briefly on a Thursday evening is a particularly big deal. Let's give a tiny shot in the arm (🤔) for those members of the NHS who maintain professional standards in their work.
 
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