MY TAKE ON IT

Caretaker1

Caretaker1

Well-known member
For what it's worth .
I am getting on and grew up in a pit village .
Back in the day Labour represented the workers .
These workers were miners , steelworkers , factory workers , shipyard workers etc.
The world has now changed .
Workers now are in hairdressers , nail bars , coffee shops , cafes or in consultancy this or marketing that .
Labour party and unions are sadly obsolete.
People blamed the Corbyn effect , but he's long gone and there has been no return to Labour .
I think the Labour party has just ebbed away .
Majority don't want Socialism and middle Labour is just Tory .
I think it's pertinent that in spite of Boris's shortcomings and alleged sleaze , there is no visible protest or heckling at his public appearances locally .
Apathy wins the day .
 
"Workers now are in hairdressers , nail bars , coffee shops , cafes or in consultancy this or marketing that"

I agree with this - but perhaps they need a Labour party to press for better working conditions, better redistribution of wealth and representation of working people.

I have posted it on this board enough times - but Labour are the most popular political party among working people and would have won the last two elections had pensioners votes not been counted.

They may have lost support in 'traditional' areas, which is to the party's shame, but they remain the party of the working man and woman. The idea that under-45s, people living in urban centres of more than 100,000 people, or those that attended one of them fancy universities, are not "working people" is a ridiculous nonsense that seemingly everyone is happy to indulge.
 
Doesn’t really matter what industry you’re working in, people still need representation and protection of their rights from unscrupulous employers. You aren’t going to get that by voting Tory, quite the opposite in fact. We’ve already seen how the Tories are trying to remove and erode workers and the population in generals rights since Brexit. Imagine the damage they’ll do if left unchallenged by a decent opposition




🐔
 
Funky_Chicken said:
Doesn’t really matter what industry you’re working in, people still need representation and protection of their rights from unscrupulous employers. You aren’t going to get that by voting Tory, quite the opposite in fact. We’ve already seen how the Tories are trying to remove and erode workers and the population in generals rights since Brexit. Imagine the damage they’ll do if left unchallenged by a decent opposition




🐔
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Totally agree but people don't seem to take this on board and still vote Tory.
 
Completely throwing my random thoughts in here!

I think Labour suffer a lot from that reputation of being for the “working” man and an expanding lower middle class. A lot of people even though they work don’t identify themselves as being in a working class that Labour is for.

Previously workers felt exploited and a lot of workers did jobs which were hard and unforgiving. So unions and Labour served a strong purpose.

Now, a lot of those people who would of worked manual jobs, (me included - ironically because of Blair’s Labour) now have degrees and companies are falling over themselves to get the best talent.

Employees get all the snacks they want, flexi time, work from home, beer fridge, share options etc and hey ho, if your boss is a tool / you want more money, there’s recruitment consultants there to profit off you getting a brand new job with a golden hello. So what’s the need of unions for these people when everything is on their own hands.

Couple in the social media age which has increased the output of narcissism where self improvement and aspiration is everything and you’re taking away a large segment of people who would of voted for labour because they needed them.

And then you add in the older former Labour voters who’ve voted Tory because of Brexit and you have a situation where the labour vote is getting diluted from two sides.

Corbyn was popular with a younger segment but how many of those were actually middle class youth / students and what percentage of the population do they make up. And even from that, how do their views stack up and change when they find employment, especially if it’s a job they love and life ain’t that bad? It’s fine a student chanting Corbyns name at Glastonbury, but how do his views Change once he gets that post grad job at PWC or Deloitte?

I’m not saying these people voted for Tories either btw, but it might be enough to make them abstain. I don’t Identify with them in the slightest and I’m not truly sure who I do identify with. I did a survey earlier which put LD at the top 85% (I see as a wasted vote) and Tory on the bottom with 70% with Labour and greens in the middle, but in my area I kinda see it as a wasted vote. In my perfect world this should tick over every 4-8 years so neither side can get too entrenched.

edit - it took me a blooming hour to write that
 
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Caretaker1 said:
For what it's worth .
I am getting on and grew up in a pit village .
Back in the day Labour represented the workers .
These workers were miners , steelworkers , factory workers , shipyard workers etc.
The world has now changed .
Workers now are in hairdressers , nail bars , coffee shops , cafes or in consultancy this or marketing that .
Labour party and unions are sadly obsolete.
People blamed the Corbyn effect , but he's long gone and there has been no return to Labour .
I think the Labour party has just ebbed away .
Majority don't want Socialism and middle Labour is just Tory .
I think it's pertinent that in spite of Boris's shortcomings and alleged sleaze , there is no visible protest or heckling at his public appearances locally .
Apathy wins the day .
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The working class is people who work for a living.. not many of them in the PLP
 
For me the conservatives are now the English national party and with a Scottish national party there is no place for the moderates, be it a little left or a little right
 
LaPennaBianca said:
I have posted it on this board enough times - but Labour are the most popular political party among working people and would have won the last two elections had pensioners votes not been counted.
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I've noticed that you have posted this message previously and I can't help but wonder if you're actually advocating that pensioners should not be allowed to vote?
 
Erimus11 said:
I've noticed that you have posted this message previously and I can't help but wonder if you're actually advocating that pensioners should not be allowed to vote?
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And every time I say that's not what I'm saying. I then ask why people draw that conclusion and they never articulate why. Ideally you'll be the exception.

Pensioners have every right to vote however they please - but we need to stop lumping their votes in with 'working Class' (as the C2DE definition does) when analysing why people vote the way they do. Hence why I'm at pains to make the distinction.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
And every time I say that's not what I'm saying. I then ask why people draw that conclusion and they never articulate why. Ideally you'll be the exception.

Pensioners have every right to vote however they please - but we need to stop lumping their votes in with 'working Class' (as the C2DE definition does) when analysing why people vote the way they do. Hence why I'm at pains to make the distinction.
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I wasn't looking to score cheap points or provoke an argument.

It's just that, as a pensioner, albeit early retirement, you can appreciate my curiosity.

For 47 years I was "working class" and I can't see why that classification should change now that I am no longer in work and effectively now a pensioner.

Good news is MFC have confirmed that I'm entitled to a concessionary season ticket for the coming season! ;)
 
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No one wants to class themselves as working class these days in my opinion, they all want the next flashiest phone, the new shiniest car, and they all want to post about it on Facebook or Instagram.

Associating yourself as working class is not seen attractive these days.

Although the majority of us are, that’s my thoughts anyways.
 
Erimus11 said:
I wasn't looking to score cheap points or provoke an argument.

It's just that, as a pensioner, albeit early retirement, you can appreciate my curiosity.

For 47 years I was "working class" and I can't see why that classification should change no that I am no longer in work and effectively now a pensioner.

Good news is MFC have confirmed that I'm entitled to a concessionary season ticket for the coming season! ;)
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And I didn't mean to slight people who are retired - but it's mostly that every narrative is one where it's a 'working Class' revolt. But how can you be working class when you don't work? Why would you support the party of the working man by default? The guaranteed income and outright assets that retirees enjoy provide the luxury to vote on identity issues.

I suppose it's because as someone in their early 30s I'll never be able to retire early as you have, and it's taken me and partner years of scrimping and saving to get on the property ladder. We are both what you would class as 'middle Class' (educated, in MC jobs) but we spent our 20s paying off enormous student loans, earning eff all and paying exorbitant rent to landlords. We now both pay into pension schemes that have been downgraded significantly so that we won't see anywhere near the benefits today's retirees are enjoying. Our house cost 5x what its former owners paid for it 20 years ago.

We work hard for a living and will have to do so into our late 60s while having had arrested starts to our adult lives due to the conditions created by our forbears (property/rent prices, 2008 crisis, tuition fees). Yet it's us, hardworking people, who have lost every general election we've been permitted to vote in (and one referendum), who are somehow classed as the 'elite'. Whereas homeowners and people who can live off wealth are somehow not?

I guess it's complicated. But losing every battle and then being told that you need to lose even more in order to learn some sort of lesson, it gets very tiring.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
And I didn't mean to slight people who are retired - but it's mostly that every narrative is one where it's a 'working Class' revolt. But how can you be working class when you don't work? Why would you support the party of the working man by default? The guaranteed income and outright assets that retirees enjoy provide the luxury to vote on identity issues.

I suppose it's because as someone in their early 30s I'll never be able to retire early as you have, and it's taken me and partner years of scrimping and saving to get on the property ladder. We are both what you would class as 'middle Class' (educated, in MC jobs) but we spent our 20s paying off enormous student loans, earning eff all and paying exorbitant rent to landlords. We now both pay into pension schemes that have been downgraded significantly so that we won't see anywhere near the benefits today's retirees are enjoying. Our house cost 5x what its former owners paid for it 20 years ago.

We work hard for a living and will have to do so into our late 60s while having had arrested starts to our adult lives due to the conditions created by our forbears (property/rent prices, 2008 crisis, tuition fees). Yet it's us, hardworking people, who have lost every general election we've been permitted to vote in (and one referendum), who are somehow classed as the 'elite'. Whereas homeowners and people who can live off wealth are somehow not?

I guess it's complicated. But losing every battle and then being told that you need to lose even more in order to learn some sort of lesson, it gets very tiring.
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I'm not oblivious of the issues that face people of your age group - My son , only slightly younger than you, is going through the exact same heartaches and tribulations and I sincerely feel for anybody in the same situation.

That said , I (as a pensioner) cannot be held responsible for everything that the "younger" generation perceive as kicking their legs away from under them.
I was in employment for 47 years, I survived 2 redundancies at critical times in my life. I contributed to a pension scheme at the earliest opportunity as I had the nouce to realise that it would be of benefit to me in my latter years - for that I probably had to forgo some of life's other pleasures at an age when I wanted to try everything and go everywhere.
Pensioners worked just as hard for a living as today's younger generation and through an era when digital revolution was either non existent or in its infancy .
To crudely paraphrase Mogga - it is what it is

Question for you - as I don't work, your claim is that I can't be working class, what class am I?
 
Erimus11 said:
I'm not oblivious of the issues that face people of your age group - My son , only slightly younger than you, is going through the exact same heartaches and tribulations and I sincerely feel for anybody in the same situation.

That said , I (as a pensioner) cannot be held responsible for everything that the "younger" generation perceive as kicking their legs away from under them.
I was in employment for 47 years, I survived 2 redundancies at critical times in my life. I contributed to a pension scheme at the earliest opportunity as I had the nouce to realise that it would be of benefit to me in my latter years - for that I probably had to forgo some of life's other pleasures at an age when I wanted to try everything and go everywhere.
Pensioners worked just as hard for a living as today's younger generation and through an era when digital revolution was either non existent or in its infancy .
To crudely paraphrase Mogga - it is what it is

Question for you - as I don't work, your claim is that I can't be working class, what class am I?
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Again - I have never said that you didn't work hard. But the reality is that your generation saw the greatest increase in wealth in human history, while those born after 1980 will be the first in 200 years who will be worse off than their parents.

I have paid into a pension since I was 25, my partner since 23. We will not be able to retire early. That is a fact.

Working class isn't a vibe, it's based on material conditions. If you live off accrued wealth and assets, rather than work, you are no longer working class. You are a retiree, which as I have said many times is sui generis
 
LaPennaBianca said:
I have posted it on this board enough times - but Labour are the most popular political party among working people and would have won the last two elections had pensioners votes not been counted.
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So what are you saying? Remove the vote from pensioners? Remove the vote from people living in shire counties? And lawyers, doctors, accountants and veterinarians? Keep paring down the electorate until you are left with only people who vote Labour?

All day I've heard people from Hartlepool on tv saying they didn't vote Labour because they didn't know what their policies were, thought they were being taken for granted, and hadn't seen any benefit from 60 years of Labour MPs.

But still the diehards on here blame the electorate, blame the media, blame the Tories, the electoral system, in fact everything except the Labour Party itself.
 
Soutra said:
So what are you saying? Remove the vote from pensioners? Remove the vote from people living in shire counties? And lawyers, doctors, accountants and veterinarians? Keep paring down the electorate until you are left with only people who vote Labour?

All day I've heard people from Hartlepool on tv saying they didn't vote Labour because they didn't know what their policies were, thought they were being taken for granted, and hadn't seen any benefit from 60 years of Labour MPs.

But still the diehards on here blame the electorate, blame the media, blame the Tories, the electoral system, in fact everything except the Labour Party itself.
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If you read the rest of this thread you'll clearly see I'm saying no such thing.
 
Soutra said:
So what are you saying? Remove the vote from pensioners? Remove the vote from people living in shire counties? And lawyers, doctors, accountants and veterinarians? Keep paring down the electorate until you are left with only people who vote Labour?

All day I've heard people from Hartlepool on tv saying they didn't vote Labour because they didn't know what their policies were, thought they were being taken for granted, and hadn't seen any benefit from 60 years of Labour MPs.

But still the diehards on here blame the electorate, blame the media, blame the Tories, the electoral system, in fact everything except the Labour Party itself.
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"hadn't seen any benefit from 60 years of Labour MPs"
In the last 60 years the tories have been in power fora majority of the time.

"Keep paring down the electorate until you are left with only people who vote Labour?"
Or keep moving the constituancy boundaries to favour the tories?

The people of Hartlepool have obviously seen the massive benefits of 11 years of Tory government.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
And I didn't mean to slight people who are retired - but it's mostly that every narrative is one where it's a 'working Class' revolt. But how can you be working class when you don't work? Why would you support the party of the working man by default? The guaranteed income and outright assets that retirees enjoy provide the luxury to vote on identity issues.

I suppose it's because as someone in their early 30s I'll never be able to retire early as you have, and it's taken me and partner years of scrimping and saving to get on the property ladder. We are both what you would class as 'middle Class' (educated, in MC jobs) but we spent our 20s paying off enormous student loans, earning eff all and paying exorbitant rent to landlords. We now both pay into pension schemes that have been downgraded significantly so that we won't see anywhere near the benefits today's retirees are enjoying. Our house cost 5x what its former owners paid for it 20 years ago.

We work hard for a living and will have to do so into our late 60s while having had arrested starts to our adult lives due to the conditions created by our forbears (property/rent prices, 2008 crisis, tuition fees). Yet it's us, hardworking people, who have lost every general election we've been permitted to vote in (and one referendum), who are somehow classed as the 'elite'. Whereas homeowners and people who can live off wealth are somehow not?

I guess it's complicated. But losing every battle and then being told that you need to lose even more in order to learn some sort of lesson, it gets very tiring.
Click to expand...
Move North much cheaper to live 👍
 
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