DCI_Gene_Hunt
Well-known member
Kids should not go to school to learn to respect others, that should be instilled in the home by parents.
Middlesbrough Supporters Forum Raise Concerns Over Away Support
- Thread starter InglebyUTB
- Start date
Tom_Boro
Well-known member
I'm happy for people to enjoy a pint with the football they aren't exactly committing war crimes are they.
DCI_Gene_Hunt
Well-known member
No but they are breaking the law aren't they.
What if everyone else in the ground thought the same and just started bringing drinks into the viewing area?
It's about standards.
Doncaster Smoggie
Well-known member
Might be hardly an issue in your eyes but you either obey the rules or you should face the consequences. You would hope these individuals were sensible and understood the rules re not taking alcohol to their seats, obviously they took no notice and had to return to the concourse when the steward asked them. Credit to them that they did as requested and didn’t become ar@@holes and cause a scene, something that happens far too often at away games. I like a drink as much as anyone but if the rules say you cannot drink alcohol in certain parts of the ground you abide by them.
changingman
Well-known member
This thread just sums up why I very rarely attend "elite" football matches in this country anymore. Non-league or European games for me probably from now on.
I just don't see the rationale in spending time with those I'd never ever encounter away from a football match.
I just don't see the rationale in spending time with those I'd never ever encounter away from a football match.
Tom_Boro
Well-known member
As long as they behave themselves then it's not really a huge issue.
Humpty
Well-known member
Hopefully the racists never returned.
Kids need to learn respect from all role models and sadly for some this won't be a parent or carer so it is very important especially for these young people they learn respect from other adults especially school.
DCI_Gene_Hunt
Well-known member
Agreed to an extent but its no a teachers role to teach children to be respectful. same as teachers shouldn't have to deal with kids coming to school who aren't toilet trained but they do!
DCI_Gene_Hunt
Well-known member
But it is - its about standards.
People don't get to pick and choose which rules/laws they follow. 2 lads drink in he ground, 20 others see them and think it's ok for them so I'll do it then.
If you don't follow the rules you're part of the problem not the solution.
Tom_Boro
Well-known member
If that's how you feel Gene that's fine. I don't see an issue. Rather it was an open pint than the bottles full of spirit in a soft drink bottle that people take to the ground.
r00fie1
Well-known member
What did you learn at school?
That includes non-directed learning [of course].
Tell us about it.
asredastheycome
Well-known member
I can imagine women and children being terrified on the concourse before match at Derby. I was ashamed to be associated with these so called fans.
DCI_Gene_Hunt
Well-known member
I got educated to the school syllabus.What did you learn at school?
That includes non-directed learning [of course].
Tell us about it.
My parents taught me right from wrong, good manners, how to behave myself and to respect my elders.
Mark_MSF
Active member
Since the article yesterday we have received more messages reporting other incidents at away games, so a picture is certainly building on unacceptable behaviour. I have retweeted a message from my own account this afternoon from a father that shared a brief insight into the experience his young daughter had at a Boro away game. Grim!
Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants
Well-known member
Don’t get me wrong, i love a good drink at home and away games, as some of those on this thread can confirm, my username comes from one such great day in 97/98 season.
not once have I been abusive to anyone, not once took a drink to my seat, snorted coke or used female bogs.
We’ve gone backwards, it has been noticeable for about 10 years how things have declined.
not once have I been abusive to anyone, not once took a drink to my seat, snorted coke or used female bogs.
We’ve gone backwards, it has been noticeable for about 10 years how things have declined.
DCI_Gene_Hunt
Well-known member
Might be useful to link it so we can read it?
Do you think that the majority of other clubs are having the same issues at away matches and its not coming to light yet or is it something unique to Boro fans?
changingman
Well-known member
Could be wrong but I think it's probably an issue with most teams, at least those with devoted/large away followings.
Might be the memory playing tricks, but it seems to be a post-Covid issue potentially? Pent-up demand for drink/drugs/communal events following lockdowns etc (I'm by no way excusing the behaviour by the way, just trying to understand it).
It's not restricted to this country either, France has witnessed significant disorder at and around football matches this season with a number being abandoned or played behind closed doors.
Might be the memory playing tricks, but it seems to be a post-Covid issue potentially? Pent-up demand for drink/drugs/communal events following lockdowns etc (I'm by no way excusing the behaviour by the way, just trying to understand it).
It's not restricted to this country either, France has witnessed significant disorder at and around football matches this season with a number being abandoned or played behind closed doors.
Mark_MSF
Active member
Sorry about the length of this post, but its an article from the athletic yesterday that is relevant...
Special report: The ‘flagrant’ use of cocaine at football grounds
Michael, as we shall call him, believes his experiences belong to thousands.Cocaine use, he says, began with peer pressure in his 20s and soon became entwined with life as a football supporter. It was the culture, the thread that ran from one away day to the next.
“It was just something we did,” he says. “We’d do it on the trains, on the buses. Nobody cared and you never really thought about people noticing.
“Then it started to sneak into nights out, weekends away from football, but I was lucky and never lost control with it. I saw people who did, where they couldn’t have a night out without taking coke. The same with going to the football.”
Michael, speaking anonymously to The Athletic, estimates it is five years since he last took cocaine but, as a regular follower of a Premier League club, he knows the issue has not gone away.
“Going to a game, there’ll be a good proportion (using cocaine),” he says. “On the train back, there’ll be a higher proportion. I would say that, out of the 18- to 25-year-olds travelling together, probably 60 or 70 per cent of them will be using it. It’s so easily accessible.
“It’s all become an accepted side of life and society. There’s no resource or will to bother with users.”
If football has fought a generational battle with alcohol consumption among its supporters, its next conflict might well be over cocaine misuse.
One academic survey last summer revealed that more than 30 per cent of fans had witnessed cocaine being taken inside a football stadium, with six per cent admitting to personal cocaine use.
The authorities are increasingly aware of problems, too. The UK’s football policing lead, chief constable Mark Roberts, has told The Athletic that small-scale research this season revealed cocaine was detected when swabbing “100 per cent” of toilet cubicles in one section of a Premier League ground. Further investigations will now be held at other venues in an attempt to grasp the magnitude of cocaine use.
“We know from fans that this is a relatively open problem,” says Roberts. “My concern is that people will use cocaine now almost with impunity in some grounds.”
Roberts accepts there is still “a gap in the information and our understanding” of cocaine use among football fans. Drug use or possession was reported at only 103 matches in England and Wales during the entire 2019-20 season, 81 per cent of which involved cocaine, but those numbers do not reflect the problem.
“It’s commonplace, I think everyone knows that,” explains a serving police officer with a constabulary in the north of England, who has substantial experience of match-day planning in the Premier League and the English Football League.
“With football fans, the hooligans or casuals, they’re a bit like sheep aren’t they? They wear the same clothes, they drink the same drinks, they listen to the same music, so if someone influential in their group is taking coke, they’ll do it too.
“It’s like a subculture but in those circles, it has been normalised, definitely. That’s how it feels to me. Cocaine’s not a new phenomenon but it’s probably never been more accepted than it is now.”
The Athletic has written to all 20 Premier League clubs this month asking what, if any, preventative measures have been taken to curb drug use within their stadiums. Eight offered a response, all asking not to have their precise strategies made publicly known.
Every club said they used sniffer dogs outside of turnstiles, as well as having regular and random spot checks on supporters entering the ground. “The vast majority of fans do not get searched for logistical reasons,” said one Premier League club.
One club said they place a greater focus on away turnstiles and another said stewards were deployed to check the toilets in areas of the ground considered to be high-risk. Manchester United, who said they had no evidence to suggest cocaine use was a “material or growing problem”, added they would eject any supporter found with cocaine and hand them to police. Criminal activity, according to their fans’ charter, could also lead to an indefinite ban.
Brighton & Hove Albion were the only club that publicly accepted there was an issue for football to address.
“We are increasingly concerned,” a Brighton spokesperson told The Athletic.“We will continue to take all necessary and possible steps to prevent any illegal substance coming into our stadium, and we will continue to impose very severe sanctions on anyone found to be carrying or using any illegal substance in or around our stadium.”
Perry was later pictured with a lit flare placed between his buttocks. “I was off my face and I loved every minute,” he told The Sun.
Perry was not alone in his revelry. The Athletic heard several episodes of flagrant drug use in the close vicinity of Wembley as thousands of fans — many without tickets — congregated in the capital in the countdown to kick-off. Violence and social disorder were later commonplace as fans stormed entry points at Wembley, clashing with overrun stewards.
The Football Association accepted UEFA’s punishment of playing one game behind closed doors last month. “We condemn the terrible behaviour of the individuals who caused the disgraceful scenes in and around Wembley Stadium at the Euro 2020 final, and we deeply regret that some of them were able to enter the stadium,” it said.
An independent review, led by Baroness Casey, is close to completion but it remains to be seen if drugs will be referenced as a catalyst to the trouble.
When football considers how big a problem cocaine use has become among fans, the debate is primarily shaped by the links to increases in violence and disorder.
Dr Martha Newson, an anthropologist at the University of Kent and University of Oxford, produced a research paper this year that highlighted almost a third of adult football fans had witnessed cocaine use within a stadium, with one in every 100 admitting they had taken cocaine when attending a game. A telling line was also drawn.
“Cocaine use among football fans has already been associated with the construction of ‘hyper-masculine identities’ and associated aggression,” the paper said. “Indeed, cocaine has become an element of ‘lad’ culture and, alongside alcohol, fuels competitiveness and aggression from travel to a match, until well after it is finished.”
Dr Newson concluded that fans using cocaine would likely be more aggressive to rivals. “Cocaine can enhance egos,” she told The Athletic. “You’re more confident, think you’re great at stuff even if you’re not.
“When that comes together with these intense bonds and tribal identity you get with football, you feel even more powerful in a masculine environment. You’ve got the weight of a football club behind you. It’s a cocktail with that tribal identity that comes out with a match. You’re either with me or against me and for those 90 minutes, you’re in this combative mindset.”
“There are vastly more people doing cocaine now than even five years ago. It’s very noticeable,” says Professor Geoff Pearson, an expert on the policing of football and a senior lecturer in criminal law at the University of Manchester. “It’s become a part of that carnival fan culture of transgression and intoxication.
“There’s a lot of talk about whether cocaine fuels violent disorder. Undoubtedly, some people will get more aggressive when they’ve had cocaine, in the same way some people will get more aggressive when they’ve had alcohol. I don’t think there’s a direct cause and link — if there was we would have seen a dramatic rise in football. We don’t have data yet to suggest that’s happening.”
Michael, the former cocaine user, also has his doubts. “I’m not convinced it does (contribute to violence). The adrenaline of going to football contributes to that, so does everyone being parochial and lads being lads.
“If you look back to the ’70s and ’80s when football violence was rife, drug use was very low, certainly coke. Most lads carrying on then, it was a backlash against everyone.
“People weren’t high or taking coke, not 99 per cent of them. It’s still a case of you see a group of lads in your town who aren’t from your town and that’s how it all starts.”
The prevalence of cocaine use is considered to be around four times greater than it was in 1995 and that upturn has come against a backdrop of increased availability and falling prices.
Considered the choice of the rich and famous in the 1980s, cocaine has become increasingly common in the last three decades. Data from the United Nations says the average cost of street cocaine has fallen by almost two-thirds of its price in 1990. It has overtaken amphetamines and ecstasy to stand alone as the most frequently-used Class A substance in the UK.
“There’s an acceptance within society now, whether you like it or not, that a large group take coke,” says one former police officer, who spent extensive periods working for a drug squad. “And it’s not questioned. Everyone knows it’s going on. It’s not underground, is it?”
Well-attended sporting events are encountering inevitable issues. The UK’s big horse racing meetings are battling with cocaine abuse and in tennis, the Wimbledon Championships launched an inquiry in 2013 after numerous toilets were found to contain traces of the illegal substance.
Football cannot hope to be an island and the stories told by supporters are well known. The unusually long queues to use a cubicle at half-time and a jacket being passed around among friends.
One season-ticket holder at a Premier League club told The Athletic that cocaine use among away fans is rampant and often unsubtle.
“I was in an away end in August, and in the loos pre-kick-off and during half-time, there was flagrant use,” the fan said. “During the match, despite being with my family, bags of cocaine were being offered and passed around.”
The Cocaine Trade, a Home Affairs Committee paper published in 2010, said the drug has “powerful stimulant properties” and its use produces “exhilaration, indifference to fatigue and feelings of great physical strength”.
There is also a “strong link” between the use of alcohol and the use of cocaine. The two can often go hand in hand.
“It’s very difficult to pull apart the effects of alcohol and cocaine in a football setting because they tend to be used together,” adds Newson. “Let’s say you’ve got an away match, up at 5am, cracking open the beers. You’re going to be done by midday. Cocaine makes a difference when used with alcohol.
“Following a football club, especially for that 18-25 age group, is about having a laugh in a party environment. It’s a ritual setting and people have used drugs in ritual settings all around the world and have done for millennia.
“The thing about cocaine is that it’s become more prevalent, cheaper and purer in quite a short amount of time. Football is just holding up a mirror to the rest of society. I think the real point is that clubs and stadia need to take some responsibility for it.”
Michael explains how readily available small amounts of cocaine are and how little risk is involved in buying it.
“Honestly, it’s dead easy to get,” he says. “We’re talking Tuesday morning — one or two phone calls and I could get you some in an hour. No-one has to work hard to get it. I know who to call and I could pick up whatever I wanted.
“You’re not talking big-time dealers. Just mates of mates or someone who knows someone and wants to sell some coke on.”
Current measures, such as sniffer dogs and pat searches, cannot hope to stem use. That is best summed up by a stark reality over how cocaine is policed at games.
“Honestly? You don’t,” explains one serving officer. “Not at the games themselves. It gets mentioned in briefings and the match-day planning but there are things you have to remember.
“Resources are stretched like a lot of public services. You have to concentrate on certain priorities.
“The main thing is reducing trouble. That’s what all your match-day planning is focused on. There’s a recognition that some supporters will be coked up and as you get more experienced, you can spot them.
“It’s totally different if you have intelligence to say that someone is dealing at a game. Then you would try and single them out. But think about it. If you’re intervening with individuals, you’re losing officers to the process of searching them, arresting them, processing them, taking them back to the station and all that. You’re losing officers who you need for the whole of the match-day operation at a ground.
“It doesn’t sound ideal because, to be honest, it isn’t. But when you brief or plan before a match, you can’t prioritise individual searches of people. It’s just not as important as limiting trouble. I know you can say that one (cocaine use) maybe leads to another (trouble) but it’s just not practical to try and intervene like that.”
Owen West, a specialist in crowd policing and a former chief superintendent, agrees that police resources are one of the biggest problems when it comes to tackling cocaine use.
“For every arrest you make, you’re likely to lose two cops,” he tells The Athletic.“One person is going to take away two police officers. If you’re doing that three, four or five times in a group then you very quickly get to the point where there’s no resources left.
“It’s about crowd control more than crime control. All your resources are going into making sure you can move one crowd from A to B. It’s about getting to the end of a day and hoping no one has been hurt and enjoyed their day.”
West also believes the current “distant” policing strategies do little to curb cocaine use among football fans.
“Police tend to have a tactical approach where they work from distance,” he says. “What they’re failing to do is get into crowds and build a relationship to find out what’s happening.
“What they’ll generally do is pen them in a pub and wait outside. They’ve no idea what’s going on inside and whether drugs are being taken or if behaviour has deteriorated.
“It’s a very outdated model… and it makes intervention obviously quite difficult.”
This, however, is not just an issue for police. Every club has a responsibility to ensure drug use is stopped on their premises, just like in a nightclub or pub. Failure to do, in theory, should bring repercussions.
“We need to understand the issues and drive football clubs to deal with it,” says Roberts. “What are the clubs doing? Are they putting stewards in toilets? Are they using sniffer dogs? Are they using things that make it harder to use drugs in toilets? Putting baby oil or something on the top of a toilet so you can’t snort drugs off that surface?
“There are many simple things that can be done that signals it’s not acceptable and there’s going to be action.
“Of course, the police have to play a part. If we see criminality then we’ll get involved to try and tackle it but the starting point should be the club trying to deal with it.
“I sometimes contrast the music industry with football. Dealing with some major festivals and how they’re organised, they are so much more switched on to security and drug issues with some music events.
“We deal with Creamfields in Cheshire and their approach to customer welfare and a responsible approach to keep their event safe leaves football in the dark ages. If music promoters can do it, spend the cash to stop it, why can’t football?”
One Premier League club said possession of a Class A substance would bring an initial three-game ban and require the fan to sign a behaviour agreement. Being caught for a second time would then likely bring a permanent exclusion order. A fine would likely follow a police arrest for carrying small amounts of cocaine, although a custodial sentence of up to 51 weeks cannot be ruled out.
Roberts would like to see sterner punishments become a greater deterrent. He proposed in the wake of Euro 2020 that cocaine use inside a football ground should be punished with a Football Banning Order. Breaching one of those is a criminal offence, punishable by a maximum sentence of six months in prison. There is no immediate prospect of that change in legislation happening, though.
A Home Office spokesperson told The Athletic: “Football banning orders can be imposed following a conviction for football-related violence or disorder, and currently around 1,400 hooligans are barred from attending games.
“Possession of cocaine is a criminal offence in its own right, and we are clear that we expect the police to enforce the law using all the powers at their disposal.”
“Getting a football banning order would be a more serious sanction,” says Roberts. “That would be an important tool for us to have.
“It’s just about catching up with the times. It wasn’t as prevalent when this legislation was published but it now is. That’s why we need the evidence base from several grounds to work with clubs and come back with a clear understanding of use and misuse.
“The Premier League is very image-conscious but if we bury heads in the sand then these things can come back to bite you.
“Football has become very safe and secure for its fans but some things are creeping back in can change that. There’s a shared interest to make sure we sensibly tackle this