Middle-class trappings

atypical_boro said:
See what you've described there is, to me, the established middle class.

There is a lower middle class, that I'd imagine a large proportion of the board sit in, and which I think Newy was arguing isn't really the middle class but we've been led to believe is.
Click to expand...
Ok, I see what you’re saying but my answer to your point is the question ( I know that sounds weird) Anyway, just how many classes are there? Isn’t a ‘lower middle class’ moving the goalposts? I like the point Boromart made but my opinion is this; your improved standing may mean your children could be middle class, but your belief system is still rooted in the working class mindset.
Incidentally I think the only ‘class’ obsessed with this Issue is the working class. Now note- I said obsessed, I don’t mean in the literal sense, what I mean is that we are more conscious of it but by no
means the only class aware of it or involved in discussing it. There must be some sociologists on this board who could throw some light on it all?
 
NoloBoro said:
Ok, I see what you’re saying but my answer to your point is the question ( I know that sounds weird) Anyway, just how many classes are there? Isn’t a ‘lower middle class’ moving the goalposts? I like the point Boromart made but my opinion is this; your improved standing may mean your children could be middle class, but your belief system is still rooted in the working class mindset.
Incidentally I think the only ‘class’ obsessed with this Issue is the working class. Now note- I said obsessed, I don’t mean in the literal sense, what I mean is that we are more conscious of it but by no
means the only class aware of it or involved in discussing it. There must be some sociologists on this board who could throw some light on it all?
Click to expand...
Agree with that largely. The middle class don't go round saying they're proud of it etc.
 
Pak_Doo_Ik said:
Most definately, owning anything that would make my grandad say 'bit fancy isn't it' is my definition of middles class and a Nutribullet definately falls in to this category.
Click to expand...

a cringeworthy description of what it means to be working class from a comedy show at the Edinburgh Fringe

"This show was created because/in spite of (but not limited to) the following:
Spam, chippy teas, waste grounds, hanging around, knock off trainers, a fella your dad knows, weed, the unions, crap schools, bunking off, electric metres, Brixton, Toxteth, hand me down clothes, holidays in caravans, **** on a stick, the back of a lorry, failed MOT’s, failed GCSE’s, bus stops, pay day loans, Daniel Blake, Grenfell, cheap meat, pubs, pints, tobacco, Margret F***ing Thatcher, cash converters, job seekers allowance, zero hour contracts, jam butties, gravy, pyjamas, broken glass, broken homes, playing out, white lightening, E, backyards, slums, tenements, The housing, The social, The NHS, grants, grasses, benefits, belts, credit unions, hiding from the milk man, tired dads, fierce mums, dying young, Aldi, Iceland, fighting, skin heads, Grime, underdogs, mental health, beans on toast, second hand everything, Brookside, watching the match, endless cups of tea, futility and empowerment."

really grinds my gears.
 
HarryVegas said:
In that case I'm minor royalty. Inside bog, combined with soft paper and.........A CAR!! Time to visit a department store and purchase a crown methinks. Do you think I should get my butler to call ahead so they can get the red carpet ready?
Click to expand...
"Inside bog"
Flashy b***r.
 
newyddion said:
a cringeworthy description of what it means to be working class from a comedy show at the Edinburgh Fringe

"This show was created because/in spite of (but not limited to) the following:
Spam, chippy teas, waste grounds, hanging around, knock off trainers, a fella your dad knows, weed, the unions, crap schools, bunking off, electric metres, Brixton, Toxteth, hand me down clothes, holidays in caravans, **** on a stick, the back of a lorry, failed MOT’s, failed GCSE’s, bus stops, pay day loans, Daniel Blake, Grenfell, cheap meat, pubs, pints, tobacco, Margret F***ing Thatcher, cash converters, job seekers allowance, zero hour contracts, jam butties, gravy, pyjamas, broken glass, broken homes, playing out, white lightening, E, backyards, slums, tenements, The housing, The social, The NHS, grants, grasses, benefits, belts, credit unions, hiding from the milk man, tired dads, fierce mums, dying young, Aldi, Iceland, fighting, skin heads, Grime, underdogs, mental health, beans on toast, second hand everything, Brookside, watching the match, endless cups of tea, futility and empowerment."

really grinds my gears.
Click to expand...
Yet most of it resonates.
 
newyddion said:
a cringeworthy description of what it means to be working class from a comedy show at the Edinburgh Fringe

"This show was created because/in spite of (but not limited to) the following:
Spam, chippy teas, waste grounds, hanging around, knock off trainers, a fella your dad knows, weed, the unions, crap schools, bunking off, electric metres, Brixton, Toxteth, hand me down clothes, holidays in caravans, **** on a stick, the back of a lorry, failed MOT’s, failed GCSE’s, bus stops, pay day loans, Daniel Blake, Grenfell, cheap meat, pubs, pints, tobacco, Margret F***ing Thatcher, cash converters, job seekers allowance, zero hour contracts, jam butties, gravy, pyjamas, broken glass, broken homes, playing out, white lightening, E, backyards, slums, tenements, The housing, The social, The NHS, grants, grasses, benefits, belts, credit unions, hiding from the milk man, tired dads, fierce mums, dying young, Aldi, Iceland, fighting, skin heads, Grime, underdogs, mental health, beans on toast, second hand everything, Brookside, watching the match, endless cups of tea, futility and empowerment."

really grinds my gears.
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm working class, but I don't recognise half of the things on there growing up. It's a lazy stereotype, and reads like an advert for Benefits Street or other poverty porn show, as dreamt up by some Channel 4 commissioning editor who has never been north of Islington.
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
Because they're pretty unaware of what they are, they've never known any different.
Click to expand...
Not sure that's entirely true, and I assume you mean the established middle class rather than the lower middle class (that I'm guessing you fall into). They may be out of touch with 'the working classes' but they are often fairly well educated in the subjects of politics, philosophy and economics etc! So I think there's a bit of a difference between being out of touch, and lack of self-awareness. They're normally extremely aware of their class, but don't see it as a subject of 'pride'.
 
Social Class is connected with income and wealth, but its only 50% of what defines class in England.

SC has always interested me, because I felt it from a young age as many bright working class kids do. When you do well at school and your parents are not poor, do you push on and look for a job in a traditional middle class profession or do you remain where your family roots are. Middle class kids just do as they are expected do, go to a decent uni and get a professional job, they don't have to change. The same for some working class kids, but its the ones that move class that have to think and change and adapt.

Middle classes plan for the future and I don't mean next Xmas, they often plan a generation ahead with grand parents giving significant wealth to grandchildren say for school fees or a deposit on a first home. Sometimes setting up family trusts funds to mimimise tax.

They often invest in a private education as this helps their children get into the right universities, it helps the children development self - confidence and make useful connections and not pick up a strong regional accent.

They also may start their careers modestly (say a run about at a Estate Agent, but flower later in their careers in managerial roles say managing a Estate Agency/Owning it.)

The know impressions matter as much as substance i.e if you sound good and look right, you are good. Regional accents are out unless you are Scottish. Time and time again I see people at the top or near the top of organisations who are not especially intelligent, but they present well. They have got into positions that give the impression of special expertise, when in fact they have very much amplified expertise. They may also have access to information that helps them appear experts.

Middle classes are attracted to been members of boards and committees, often this gives those people more authority and more influence and can be useful for connections. They want positions where they can pull a lot of strings.

Middle class will invest in quality property, the property may be a little thread bare, but if its in the right area that is the may think - Location, Location, Location.

Until the right things are paid for, they don't buy expensive cars, go on expensive holidays, limit spending on entertainment and drink, buy expensive electronics, buy takeaways, if they buy expensive clothes they are used many times. You might see young middle class going wild, but they are looked after by family wealth. (part of previous investing in the future). In my own family I have seen how income and wealth has not been invested in the future, but spent (sometimes wasted) in the present or just put into the building society earning low interest. Often a lack of confidence has caused inaction - my grand parents stayed in a £50 terraced house in South Bank, when they could afford a nice house in Saltburn @ £1000. They even bought one at auction then went back and handed it back and lost 5% of the cost of the house. They knew how to save and had a good idea of where to go but not the confidence to spend effectively and move up socially.

OK some generalisation there, but there are trends.

I can't speak about India and USA, but I am sure caste and race play a part, not just income.
 
Last edited:
Redwurzel said:
SC has always interested me, because I felt it from a young age as many bright working class kids do. When you do well at school and your parents are not poor, do you push on and look for a job in a traditional middle class profession or do you remain where your family roots are. Middle class kids just do as they are expected do, go to a decent uni and get a professional job, they don't have to change. The same for some working class kids, but its the ones that move class that have to think and change and adapt.
Click to expand...

I think for me one of the biggest challenges there is actually knowing what professions are out there. I'm a management consultant, but had absolutely no idea they even existed when growing up in Acklam in the late 80's / early 90's, and so had no idea it was a thing - the same with investment banking, wealth management etc.

My mam and dad didn't know people who did these jobs, the career advisor at school (a moonlighting PE teacher) didn't either, and so how can you aspire to do something like that (which is the preserve of the middle class) if you don't even know it existed?
 
Redwurzel said:
Social Class is connected with income and wealth, but its only 50% of what defines class in England.

SC has always interested me, because I felt it from a young age as many bright working class kids do. When you do well at school and your parents are not poor, do you push on and look for a job in a traditional middle class profession or do you remain where your family roots are. Middle class kids just do as they are expected do, go to a decent uni and get a professional job, they don't have to change. The same for some working class kids, but its the ones that move class that have to think and change and adapt.

Middle classes plan for the future and I don't mean next Xmas, they often plan a generation ahead with grand parents giving significant wealth to grandchildren say for school fees or a deposit on a first home. Sometimes setting up family trusts funds to mimimise tax.

They often invest in a private education as this helps their children get into the right universities, it helps the children development self - confidence and make useful connections and not pick up a strong regional accent.

They also may start their careers modestly (say a run about at a Estate Agent, but flower later in their careers in managerial roles say managing a Estate Agency/Owning it.)

The know impressions matter as much as substance i.e if you sound good and look right, you are good. Regional accents are out unless you are Scottish. Time and time again I see people at the top or near the top of organisations who are not especially intelligent, but they present well. They have got into positions that give the impression of special expertise, when in fact they have very much amplified expertise. They may also have access to information that helps them appear experts.

Middle classes are attracted to been members of boards and committees, often this gives those people more authority and more influence and can be useful for connections. They want positions where they can pull a lot of strings.

Middle class will invest in quality property, the property may be a little thread bare, but if its in the right area that is the may think - Location, Location, Location.

Until the right things are paid for, they don't buy expensive cars, go on expensive holidays, limit spending on entertainment and drink, buy expensive electronics, buy takeaways, if they buy expensive clothes they are used many times. You might see young middle class going wild, but they are looked after by family wealth.

OK some generalisation there, but there are trends.
Click to expand...
It really is all about mindset. Working class pride is b***ks. If I had my may my humble working class beliefs should be a registered disability! I’ve said it before the right start in life gives you a confidence that provides a real sense of entitlement and direction the rest of us don’t receive.
I’ve lost count of the times I’ve spoken with persons of influence at various places I’ve worked and thought-Christ on a bike, you’re not terribly bright are you. However, these ‘types’ always seem to get on, it’s almost like a right to succeed.
Ive seen the magic spells they weave. I want to shout “open your eyes you fools, they are not clever they just speak nicely!!!”
As I said in my previous post, I have a chip on my shoulder. I do believe that my accent is a real hindrance.
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
I think for me one of the biggest challenges there is actually knowing what professions are out there. I'm a management consultant, but had absolutely no idea they even existed when growing up in Acklam in the late 80's / early 90's, and so had no idea it was a thing - the same with investment banking, wealth management etc.

My mam and dad didn't know people who did these jobs, the career advisor at school (a moonlighting PE teacher) didn't either, and so how can you aspire to do something like that (which is the preserve of the middle class) if you don't even know it existed?
Click to expand...
You have probably experienced 'class transition' TLJ. From Acklam to Silicon Valley!
 
NoloBoro said:
It really is all about mindset. Working class pride is b***ks. If I had my may my humble working class beliefs should be a registered disability! I’ve said it before the right start in life gives you a confidence that provides a real sense of entitlement and direction the rest of us don’t receive.
I’ve lost count of the times I’ve spoken with persons of influence at various places I’ve worked and thought-Christ on a bike, you’re not terribly bright are you. However, these ‘types’ always seem to get on, it’s almost like a right to succeed.
Ive seen the magic spells they weave. I want to shout “open your eyes you fools, they are not clever they just speak nicely!!!”
As I said in my previous post, I have a chip on my shoulder. I do believe that my accent is a real hindrance.
Click to expand...
I have a regional accent too (not as strong as it was), but the 'types' you're talking about would argue that we're not that bright because we haven't worked out that simply speaking a certain way can probably add 30% to your salary.
 
Last edited:
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
I'm sorry I just don't buy that, there's loads of people with significant influence and credibility in many industries who have a regional accent.
Click to expand...
I think its a bit like the BLM debate (on a different scale). There are loads of rich, successful black people. But they generally have to try that little bit harder to get there.
 
I felt at home at a Polytechnic in the early 1980s - typical brighter than average kids whose parents had done well for themselves, but those parents had possibly come from Northern Working Class background. No one had gone to private school, possibly if they had they would be at University. They liked their football (when it was fashionable to not like it) some even liked a bit of punk/new wave, they were not working class, but could mix it down the Rock Garden etc.
 
Redwurzel said:
I felt at home at a Polytechnic in the early 1980s - typical brighter than average kids whose parents had done well for themselves, but those parents had possibly come from Northern Working Class background. No one had gone to private school, possibly if they had they would be at University. They liked their football (when it was fashionable to not like it) some even liked a bit of punk/new wave, they were not working class, but could mix it down the Rock Garden etc.
Click to expand...
Similar to my experience at a non-red brick university (ex-poly) in the early 00s.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top