Male Boxers fighting Females in the Olympics

[ForssAwakens]

Yeah, I've just unignored him to see what is going on. I shouldn't be surprised by these people but the effort they put into their bigotry and hatred. It must be exhausting. Trying so hard just to spread hatred. Glad she won gold. It's an amazing achievement for her and it only makes people like hellfire rant more. Good

Deliberately provocative

 

[Rofesleg]

I didn't ask you to click on his profile.

And I'm trying to work out what provocative language I used to ressurect this thread so let's see:

Oh yeah. "provocative"

That @ForssAwakens . Always starting arguments

So did you post that she won the gold medal expecting everyone to be pleased? Of course not. You knew full well it would provoke a negative response from some posters. So in that sense it was provocative.
Or did you think the posters who thought she shouldn't be competing at all would now agree that 'it all ended well' because she won gold?

 

[Ravshoutsatbeck]

View attachment 80098

It’s not bigotry at all.

I have no prejudice towards black, fat or unemployed people. I would never insult anyone to their face. The case in point here is that even though the boxer was believed to be female at birth, was raised as female and has a birth certificate stating he is female (thanks to the ambiguity of his genitals at birth, due to his DSD) he is male. If he was trans (he isn’t) then you may want to lie and call him ‘her’ to keep him happy, but he isn’t and there’s no reason why you would keep up the pretence once the truth has come to light.

He thought he was female but he isn’t. He has to deal with that.

If an adopted child grew up believing that the people who raised him were his genetic parents should they keep it a secret and not let the child know, or should they wait until he’s old enough, so he can decide whether or not to find his real parents?


Also, a person’s skin colour, weight, or job status doesn’t affect the rights of other people. Telling the lie that a male is female affects the rights of all females (and vice versa).

I think you are showing prejudice against people with DSD at minimum.

The idea that you using he/him over and over is not hurtful to someone in that position - and is based on your in my opinion - obstinate and prejudiced view that we have to obsessively define people on their chromosomes.

We will never agree here, but all I'm asking is that you can at least see how people feel it is a hurtful position to take.

 

[Big_Nothing]

I think you are showing prejudice against people with DSD at minimum.

The idea that you using he/him over and over is not hurtful to someone in that position - and is based on your in my opinion - obstinate and prejudiced view that we have to obsessively define people on their chromosomes.

We will never agree here, but all I'm asking is that you can at least see how people feel it is a hurtful position to take.

Especially when it’s supposition and not verified or established by a reliable source. Which considering he was so keen on the importance of sources earlier in the conversation just makes it all the more bigoted and badly argued.

 

[king_hellfire]

I think you are showing prejudice against people with DSD at minimum.

Far from it. There have been many times on here where I’ve corrected posters when using the term ‘intersex’ because people with DSDs don’t like that term. And I’ve also corrected posters when they’ve used people with DSDs as an example of humans being able to change sex as ‘they are neither one sex nor the other’ which is patently false and people with DSDs find it highly insulting and dehumanising.

The idea that you using he/him over and over is not hurtful to someone in that position - and is based on your in my opinion - obstinate and prejudiced view that we have to obsessively define people on their chromosomes.

I would only use ‘he’ for people with DSDs that are male conditions and ‘she’ for people with DSDs that are female conditions, which is how the majority want to be addressed. After all DSDs have nothing to do with trans. Adults with DSDs know which sex they are and want to be addressed correctly.

We will never agree here, but all I'm asking is that you can at least see how people feel it is a hurtful position to take.

Some may find it hurtful but considering there are no known posters on here with DSDs I don’t see how my addressing the boxers as ‘he’ is seen as a problem.

 

[king_hellfire]

Especially when it’s supposition and not verified or established by a reliable source.

Exactly. It’s not verified. So why aren’t you against them entering the boxing ring with female opponents until their true sex has been determined?

 

[Big_Nothing]

I think I addressed that in my previous replies but as you ignored it, I'm happy to try one more time.

These competitors to the best of our knowledge have been born and raised as women, with female passports and losses against other female competitors in their sport. The body which banned them has been seriously discredited and the current body has deemed them able to compete, as they have in previous competitions and amateur fights.

Until a credible body provides something to indicate that they should not be able to compete then they are, with all politics, respect, safety and privacy concerns, women. In their own eyes, the eyes of the body determining if they can compete and in the eyes of their families, governments and almost everyone other than a bunch of internet experts and a discredited body.

We are going in circles and if you can't understand why you referring to them as men is bigoted then that's a problem for you to address. Let alone that you've strongly inferred that anyone who doesn't conform to your line of thinking has a worldview that isn't considerate of female safety, I would argue that is also bigoted.

I look forward to seeing you repeat yourself and not actually address the content of my posts.

 

[king_hellfire]

I think I addressed that in my previous replies but as you ignored it, I'm happy to try one more time.

I ignored it because I’m replying to a dozen other posters on here asking questions that can easily be found if they Googled them, and because I’ve already answered some of your points already in this thread, plus some of your post is you blatantly bending over backwards trying to disprove that they may actually be male.

These competitors to the best of our knowledge have been born and raised as women, with female passports

That means absolutely nothing if they are male and have gone through a male puberty, which people with Khelif’s condition do.

What do you mean by ‘raised as women’?

Passports don’t mean a thing. As I said earlier, this bloke has a female passport.

and losses against other female competitors in their sport.

He’s been beaten by female opponents. He must be female then. Does it not occur to you that the problem isn’t only with him winning fights, it’s also to do with cheating other females out of a place in the competition.

The body which banned them has been seriously discredited and the current body has deemed them able to compete, as they have in previous competitions and amateur fights.

They we’re tested twice by two independent WADA-recognised laboratories.

Until a credible body

You mean like an independent WADA-recognised laboratory?

provides something to indicate
that they should not be able to compete then they are, with all politics, respect, safety and privacy concerns, women.

No they’re not. They are boxers who have failed two sex-tests and there’s no evidence whatsoever to say they are female. Which goes back to what I said earlier about it being wise not to let them fight until their sex has been verified.

In their own eyes, the eyes of the body determining if they can compete and in the eyes of their families, governments and almost everyone other than a bunch of internet experts and a discredited body.

The two independent WADA-recognised laboratories aren’t internet experts nor have they been discredited.

We are going in circles and if you can't understand why you referring to them as men is bigoted then that's a problem for you to address.

He has XY chromosomes. That is pretty much conclusive now. So, if he has a DSD then it is either Swyer Syndrome (a female condition) or 46XY DSD: 5Alpha Reductase Deficiency (a male condition).

If he was female he would have Swyer Syndrome, this condition means that he would have extremely low testosterone levels. However, his own coach has admitted that he has high levels of testosterone, so much so that they had to put him on testosterone suppressants. This can only mean that he has 46XY DSD: 5Alpha Reductase Deficiency. A male condition.

Khelif's Trainer Confirms "Problem With Chromosomes" As Spanish National Boxing Team Commissioner Reveals That Khelif Was Considered Too Dangerous To Train Against Women - Reduxx

Shocking news out of the Olympic boxing controversy as the Technical Commissioner of the Spanish boxing team reveals that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif was reportedly considered too dangerous for women to train against during a boxing retreat in Spain. Speaking to Radio Marca, former Olympian...

reduxx.info

Excerpts from the link…

Let alone that you've strongly inferred that anyone who doesn't conform to your line of thinking has a worldview that isn't considerate of female safety, I would argue that is also bigoted.

Then that’s something else you’d be wrong about. I said anyone who believes that a boxer who has failed two sex-tests should be able to enter a boxing ring with a female opponent isn’t considerate of female safety. The bare minimum that should be expected is that they don’t fight against female opponents until they have conclusively proven that they are female.

I look forward to seeing you repeat yourself and not actually address the content of my posts.

Please keep the next one shorter.

 

[Big_Nothing]

I ignored it because I’m replying to a dozen other posters on here asking questions that can easily be found if they Googled them, and because I’ve already answered some of your points already in this thread, plus some of your post is you blatantly bending over backwards trying to disprove that they may actually be male.

Your sources, such as the one you've quoted in this reply are heavily biased and if a student included them at highschool level I'd ask them to try again.

I'm not trying to bend over backwards trying to disprove that they may actually be male whatsoever,

"I am concerned about the whole situation from top to bottom. If the results passed on by the IBA were sufficient enough to disqualify these competitors on the grounds they provide a danger to opponents then I’ll be dismayed and I hope justice in whatever form is necessary is served.

I think they believe they have revealed their sex. I could be wrong, if so and it turns out they’ve concealed vital information that gave them a dangerous advantage then I’ll point to the duty of care the relevant bodies have towards the athletes and acknowledge your suspicions were placed correctly. Please feel free to @ me at such a time"

Please read the above from me quite clearly shows I am not trying to bend over backwards to disprove that they may actually be male.

That means absolutely nothing if they are male and have gone through a male puberty, which people with Khelif’s condition do.

What do you mean by ‘raised as women’?

Passports don’t mean a thing. As I said earlier, this bloke has a female passport.

You don't know that they are male and have gone through male puberty. Supposition.

The closest you have to information to support that supposition is some biased sources and an interview in one French outlet. These seem to be very recent. Do you have more reliable sources confirming the claims made by them? Genuinely if they have confirmed a chromosone and testosterone issue that have been accepted by the trainer then that would change my perspective on things. That is new information to me.

He’s been beaten by female opponents. He must be female then. Does it not occur to you that the problem isn’t only with him winning fights, it’s also to do with cheating other females out of a place in the competition.

No, I just think until something is verified, which is what I'll wait for before changing my stance, that it's pertinent.

They we’re tested twice by two independent WADA-recognised laboratories.

The results of which were interpreted and ruled upon by a discredited body, correct? I hope that those results are looked at by a body that can bring this whole thing to a conclusion.

You mean like an independent WADA-recognised laboratory?

Yes, if the results of the tests are then subject to the criteria of a body which can ban or allow participation with credibility.

No they’re not. They are boxers who have failed two sex-tests and there’s no evidence whatsoever to say they are female. Which goes back to what I said earlier about it being wise not to let them fight until their sex has been verified.

No, they are and until the above burden has been satisfied, they will continue to be.

The two independent WADA-recognised laboratories aren’t internet experts nor have they been discredited.

See above point.

He has XY chromosomes. That is pretty much conclusive now. So, if he has a DSD then it is either Swyer Syndrome (a female condition) or 46XY DSD: 5Alpha Reductase Deficiency (a male condition).

If he was female he would have Swyer Syndrome, this condition means that he would have extremely low testosterone levels. However, his own coach has admitted that he has high levels of testosterone, so much so that they had to put him on testosterone suppressants. This can only mean that he has 46XY DSD: 5Alpha Reductase Deficiency. A male condition.

Khelif's Trainer Confirms "Problem With Chromosomes" As Spanish National Boxing Team Commissioner Reveals That Khelif Was Considered Too Dangerous To Train Against Women - Reduxx

Shocking news out of the Olympic boxing controversy as the Technical Commissioner of the Spanish boxing team reveals that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif was reportedly considered too dangerous for women to train against during a boxing retreat in Spain. Speaking to Radio Marca, former Olympian...

reduxx.info

Excerpts from the link…

View attachment 80109


View attachment 80108

This is a step in the right direction for making the point that they shouldn't have been allowed to compete, if it is verifiable.

Then that’s something else you’d be wrong about. I said anyone who believes that a boxer who has failed two sex-tests should be able to enter a boxing ring with a female opponent isn’t considerate of female safety. The bare minimum that should be expected is that they don’t fight against female opponents until they have conclusively proven that they are female.

No, you did not, please read your own posts again, you said it's about people's view of the world, you have quite clearly said that anybody that doesn't conscribe to your opinion that these athletes are male therefore doesn't care about protecting females. I care about that but I want the proper process to determine it.

Please keep the next one shorter.

Bit rich, don't you think?

By the way, if a body in future that has credibility sets out criteria, interprets results from these labs (if you have a reliable link about those that'd be handy) and determines there are irregularities that mean they fail the criteria set out by the body, then I will agree that they shouldn't be boxing against who don't have these irregularities.

Previously you asserted that the content of the tests couldn't be made public as it would be illegal and they could be sued and that the camps wouldn't release it to protect the athletes, right?

But now the trainer of the athlete has done exactly that?

 

[Matlex71]

So did you post that she won the gold medal expecting everyone to be pleased? Of course not. You knew full well it would provoke a negative response from some posters. So in that sense it was provocative.
Or did you think the posters who thought she shouldn't be competing at all would now agree that 'it all ended well' because she won gold?

Great Britain won 65 medals in these Olympics - I might be wrong but strangely enough I didn't see him posting to congratulate any of them

 

[SmallTown]

So did you post that she won the gold medal expecting everyone to be pleased? Of course not. You knew full well it would provoke a negative response from some posters. So in that sense it was provocative.
Or did you think the posters who thought she shouldn't be competing at all would now agree that 'it all ended well' because she won gold?

So even when I'm spreading happy news, I alone am responsible for ensuring there is no bigotry and hatred on this board? A single post from me can awaken nastiness no matter how benign the post? This is never knew. It's a heavy burden to bear. Mad isn't it. You're angry at the guy spreading positivity because OTHER people have reacted with bigotry. What a crazy world we live in

 

[ForssAwakens]

Far from it. There have been many times on here where I’ve corrected posters when using the term ‘intersex’ because people with DSDs don’t like that term. And I’ve also corrected posters when they’ve used people with DSDs as an example of humans being able to change sex as ‘they are neither one sex nor the other’ which is patently false and people with DSDs find it highly insulting and dehumanising.



I would only use ‘he’ for people with DSDs that are male conditions and ‘she’ for people with DSDs that are female conditions, which is how the majority want to be addressed. After all DSDs have nothing to do with trans. Adults with DSDs know which sex they are and want to be addressed correctly.




Some may find it hurtful but considering there are no known posters on here with DSDs I don’t see how my addressing the boxers as ‘he’ is seen as a problem.

Why would anyone with a dsd make it known on here?

You talk about how people want to be addressed, well the boxer at the centre of this post wants to be addressed as she, but you keep referring to them as he

That person has lived there whole life as a she, so why are you going out of your way to say he.

Although this is not a trans issue, would you misgender a trans person based on their chromosomes?

 

[king_hellfire]

Your sources, such as the one you've quoted in this reply are heavily biased and if a student included them at highschool level I'd ask them to try again.

They are quoting the exact words of Khelif’s coach from an interview he took part in. His exact words. If the rest of the article has any lies in it I expect them to be sued. I won’t hold my breath.

Can you show me any source unbiased or otherwise proving that he’s actually female, that hasn’t already been debunked?

I'm not trying to bend over backwards trying to disprove that they may actually be male whatsoever,

You absolutely are. He failed two sex tests. They didn’t appeal them. His coach said he has male karyotypes. He said they had to suppress his high levels of testosterone. The Spanish coaches said he had to spar against a male boxer as he was far too powerful for the females. There are several other examples of this kind of thing. You can easily find them if you look for them. Until he verifies his sex we have to base the likelihood of him being either male or female on probabilities and everything so far is pointing towards him being male.

"I am concerned about the whole situation from top to bottom. If the results passed on by the IBA were sufficient enough to disqualify these competitors on the grounds they provide a danger to opponents then I’ll be dismayed and I hope justice in whatever form is necessary is served.

No you’re not concerned from top to bottom at all. If it’s proven that he is male you will be dismayed, but let him keep hitting females in the meantime? That seems to be your stance.

I think they believe they have revealed their sex. I could be wrong, if so and it turns out they’ve concealed vital information that gave them a dangerous advantage then I’ll point to the duty of care the relevant bodies have towards the athletes and acknowledge your suspicions were placed correctly. Please feel free to @ me at such a time"

But let him keep hitting females in the meantime?

Please read the above from me quite clearly shows I am not trying to bend over backwards to disprove that they may actually be male.

Ok, is there anything that you’ve heard in the media that gives you pause for thought? Doesn’t the fact that he didn’t appeal the results of the sex tests put any doubt in your mind? Doesn’t the fact that the IBA was willing to fund his appeal to the CAS but Khelif turned it down seem suspicious? Does the fact that he’s only able to box in the Olympics because he has ‘female’ on his passport seem like a legitimate reason to believe he’s actually female. Does raising him ‘as a girl’ mean he actually is female, considering all the signs are pointing to the conclusion that he has a male DSD condition that would mean he would have looked externally female at birth and all the way up until puberty? What do the IBA gain by falsely smearing him? Nothing. Why would they choose those two boxers if, for some bizarre reason, they wanted to randomly smear some boxers? There are other female boxers that look ‘masculine’ that they could have chosen. How lucky for the IBA to randomly choose to smear two boxers that wouldn’t appeal the decision (what are the odds?). What does Khelif have to gain by lying about being female? Well, a chance to compete in the Olympics and a gold medal for a start. What is he going to do when the boxing organisation doesn’t solely rely on what’s printed on his passport to box? That could have been nipped in the bud straight away during the appeals process. and so on…

You don't know that they are male and have gone through male puberty. Supposition.

And you don’t know that he hasn’t. Again, it’s all based on probabilities. See above.

The closest you have to information to support that supposition is some biased sources and an interview in one French outlet. These seem to be very recent. Do you have more reliable sources confirming the claims made by them?

Yeah, recent interviews don’t count, of course. Do you have any reasonable, unbiased, sources refuting the claims made by them?

Genuinely if they have confirmed a chromosone and testosterone issue that have been accepted by the trainer then that would change my perspective on things. That is new information to me.

That's good to hear, but let him keep hitting females in the meantime?

I mean his coach admitted to the male Karyotype and high testosterone levels part. Do you think the interviewer lied about what he said? Do you think he arranged the interview solely so he could lie about the coaches answers and risk being sued?

No, I just think until something is verified, which is what I'll wait for before changing my stance, that it's pertinent.

But let him keep hitting females in the meantime?

The results of which were interpreted and ruled upon by a discredited body, correct?

No, the results weren’t interpreted by anyone, they were passed on to the boxers and the IOC by the IBA. Do you think the IBA forged different test results from the ones they recorded before passing them on? Again, why would they, what do they have to gain? They would certainly have a hell of a lot to lose.

I hope that those results are looked at by a body that can bring this whole thing to a conclusion.

They should have been already. They were passed on to the IOC and the IOC ignored them.

Yes, if the results of the tests are then subject to the criteria of a body which can ban or allow participation with credibility.

But let him keep hitting females in the meantime?

No, they are and until the above burden has been satisfied, they will continue to be.

See above point.

This is a step in the right direction for making the point that they shouldn't have been allowed to compete, if it is verifiable.

It is verifiable. The IOC stopped sex testing in 1999. They now rely on the sex printed in the athletes passport and the word of the country’s federation.

No, you did not, please read your own posts again, you said it's about people's view of the world, you have quite clearly said that anybody that doesn't conscribe to your opinion that these athletes are male therefore doesn't care about protecting females. I care about that but I want the proper process to determine it.

Show me where I said that.

Bit rich, don't you think?

I don’t know what this is referring to.

By the way, if a body in future that has credibility sets out criteria, interprets results from these labs (if you have a reliable link about those that'd be handy) and determines there are irregularities that mean they fail the criteria set out by the body, then I will agree that they shouldn't be boxing against who don't have these irregularities.

But let him keep hitting females in the meantime?

This really isn’t a logical stance to hold. This isn’t innocent until proven guilty. Especially when he refuses to prove his innocence or guilt. This is a potential danger to any female who enters the ring with a male. Take the example of the cage fighter Fallon Fox who fractured his opponent’s skull and then said he loved every minute of it.


The IBA didn’t ’interpret’ the results. They were given the results and then passed them on.

Previously you asserted that the content of the tests couldn't be made public as it would be illegal and they could be sued and that the camps wouldn't release it to protect the athletes, right?

It would be illegal, yes.

But now the trainer of the athlete has done exactly that?

Yes, the trainer has done exactly that. He’s slipped up. I’m not sure that Khelif is going to sue his own trainer though, are you? I hope he does because the details of the test will then have to be made public… which is why he won’t and which is why he didn’t appeal in the first place. The results would be made public and his days of hitting women would be over.



I didn’t see the part where you explained what ‘raised as a girl’ meant.

 

[king_hellfire]

Why would anyone with a dsd make it known on here?

They wouldn’t, and because the likelihood of having a DSD is so low I will continue as though there isn’t anyone who posts on here with one.

You talk about how people want to be addressed, well the boxer at the centre of this post wants to be addressed as she, but you keep referring to them as he

Because I don’t believe he’s a ‘she’. He refuses to say whether or not he’s a ‘she’ so until he does I’ll call him ‘he’. If he wants to be called ‘she’ he should have appealed the test results and cleared everything up. He didn’t do that so I don’t think being called ‘he’ bothers him that much.

That person has lived there whole life as a she, so why are you going out of your way to say he.

A male who lives their whole life as a female is still a male. Agreed? Living your life as a female (whatever that means) doesn’t change your biological sex.

Although this is not a trans issue, would you misgender a trans person based on their chromosomes?

I don’t believe in misgendering. Gender is a meaningless, nonsense word. I would use language relating to their sex. If the person is male I would call him ‘he’, if the person was female I would call her ‘she’. If I had a close friend who was ‘trans’ I would probably call them what they wanted to be called but I wouldn’t agree about them being the opposite sex or the rights to use the spaces designated for the opposite sex.

 

[viv_andersons_nana]

I can’t speak for anybody else but the constant use of “he” is making my skin crawl.

 

[king_hellfire]

I can’t speak for anybody else but the constant use of “he” is making my skin crawl.

Are you always such a sensitive soul?

What makes my skin crawl is biological males hitting biological females in the name of ‘sport’ and the people who happily cheer it on.

Do you believe that Khelif should be free to box against biological females if their sex is unknown and they could potentially be male? Don’t you think it would be safer to determine their sex first?

Look, I didn’t mention ‘he’ once there. You’re welcome.

Would you like to answer the question?

 

[Chappy112]

I can’t speak for anybody else but the constant use of “he” is making my skin crawl.

Things like that are why I just won't engage with him, anyone that thinks he isn't being bigoted is living in a different world, especially with his history on trans issues.

 

[king_hellfire]

Things like that are why I just won't engage with him, anyone that thinks he isn't being bigoted is living in a different world, especially with his history on trans issues.

No, you won’t engage with me because you can’t answer questions like this…

Do you believe that Khelif should be free to box against biological females if their sex is unknown and they could potentially be male? Don’t you think it would be safer to determine their sex first?

 

[ForssAwakens]

They wouldn’t, and because the likelihood of having a DSD is so low I will continue as though there isn’t anyone who posts on here with one.




Because I don’t believe he’s a ‘she’. He refuses to say whether or not he’s a ‘she’ so until he does I’ll call him ‘he’. If he wants to be called ‘she’ he should have appealed the test results and cleared everything up. He didn’t do that so I don’t think being called ‘he’ bothers him that much.





A male who lives their whole life as a female is still a male. Agreed? Living your life as a female (whatever that means) doesn’t change your biological sex.



I don’t believe in misgendering. Gender is a meaningless, nonsense word. I would use language relating to their sex. If the person is male I would call him ‘he’, if the person was female I would call her ‘she’. If I had a close friend who was ‘trans’ I would probably call them what they wanted to be called but I wouldn’t agree about them being the opposite sex or the rights to use the spaces designated for the opposite sex.

Ah so in my opinion you are bigoted, you do not accept trans people. I don’t believe that I continue to debate on the issue with good faith given your stance outlined above.

I think it’s pretty disgusting you’ve put ‘’ around trans, as it’s clear you have prejudice in this area

They are people on this site who have shared their trans stories and you are coming out with this bile, which I will imagine they will find quite offensive.

 

[Big_Nothing]

Ah he slipped up! Of course.

Honestly, we're going in circles. We're clearly diametrically opposed on our views. I find yours bigoted, repetitive, disingenuous and without nuance.

You think I want to let a man hit women because you won't consider any other aspects surrounding this case. You're wrong and I dislike the assertion that I'm okay with it because I think there's a multitude of factors at play.