Luigi Mangione - Suspect Apprehended in Health CEO case.

SilentProf said:
but arguing that individuals should be able to assassinate people they disagree with
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This is far too simplistic.
It’s not like one thought Latte Lath should be up front and the other thought Conway - is it?

There is lots going on here and we will no doubt get to know his motive in good time.

The principle that everyone should be allowed to live is enshrined in Human Rights. It goes on to say we must rely on the rule of law to deal with those who commit crimes.

There is a discussion to be had about how the US health sector delivers on the human right to live by the way they fund, and decide treatment for those without adequate care.

There have been many philosophical discussions over the years on the merits or not of ‘ethical killing’.
The discussion focuses on what you do (ethically) if you believe someone is going to kill in the future.
As ever, with ethics, there is no right or wrong - it’s about each individual to do the reading and decide how they would act in each circumstance.

A ‘Thought Experiment’
Let’s say you knew, with a fair degree of certainty, that someone was going to kill one of your loved ones but you also knew the police would take no action.
You had the means to kill them first. What would you do.
 
There are a lot of ways, legal and illegal, to show ones discontent with the health insurance model that aren't killing someone.

The fact that he chose to murder the man is telling. It doesn't make him a hero, or a herald of the working class or the harbinger of revolution. It makes him a murderer.
 
Ex Footy Legs said:
The USA is, in many ways just as bad as Russia, North Korea etc....people have very few employment rights, healthcare is very expensive and claims obviously very difficult to make, college education is mightily expensive, guns run through society like confetti, mass killings almost every month, no mental health services as Americans have it drilled into them ,look after yourself, the state shouldn't have to bail you out. No matter what your problems. Drugs & drug taking (class1) rife through society.
Recipe for disaster - eventually.....

These actions are snippets of what's to come.....people have spirit within in them, however, the way the system is set up in America with NRA, big Pharma & health insurance companies controlling politicians it's heading toward a dark place - that is for sure.
In isolation, this act was grotesque, yet if you broaden your vision and look deeper you see why....and it should (but it wont) worry a lot of rich and powerful but they are drunk on money and the power that enables them to enjoy...for now.

Its a dog eat dog societal model. And it don't work.
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All or most of that may be true, but vigilantism and murder is not the solution, it is just yet another step toward breakdown in society and a step back to the dark ages. I can’t see anyone truly wanting to do the right thing by its people in this global world. I am not sure any one govrnment could alone anyway.

Greed exists in all walks of life to a varying degree. You will have your own episodes of personal greed, we all do, we are somehow conditioned to it. Most can control it and are grateful for what we have, but we all experience temptation at times. We’d all love the 6 balls to come up with our numbers on it. How many of us would use that for the good of strangers, not many I’d bet.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
There are a lot of ways, legal and illegal, to show ones discontent with the health insurance model that aren't killing someone.

The fact that he chose to murder the man is telling. It doesn't make him a hero, or a herald of the working class or the harbinger of revolution. It makes him a murderer.
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What are these choices they have?

No politician in the country is taking that fight on. Americans on the left and right constantly voice their displeasure at the insurance system and nothing changes.

The man is a murderer but he has also united a very partisan electorate in the country and brought attention that has already seen insurance companies changing policy.

Lets not forget the CEO is a murderer also! He knew the AI was faulty and let it turn down claims anyway because profit is more important than people to him and his company. He was also under investigation for fraud and share manipulation. It is easy to see why his killer is being heralded, moreover it shows how few options American citizens have left fight back given nothing was done about their egregious denial of claims.

For context the average denial rate of claims in America is around 15% the CEO's companies denial rate was over 30%. That is murder on a industrial scale.
 
RavsFan said:
All or most of that may be true, but vigilantism and murder is not the solution, it is just yet another step toward breakdown in society and a step back to the dark ages. I can’t see anyone truly wanting to do the right thing by its people in this global world. I am not sure any one govrnment could alone anyway.

Greed exists in all walks of life to a varying degree. You will have your own episodes of personal greed, we all do, we are somehow conditioned to it. Most can control it and are grateful for what we have, but we all experience temptation at times. We’d all love the 6 balls to come up with our numbers on it. How many of us would use that for the good of strangers, not many I’d bet.
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What is the solution?

If politicians refuse to make changes what are these people supposed to do?
 
festa5 said:
I do agree about murder is not acceptable and should never be lauded.

However I'm also not sure relying on politics, legitimate campaigning or protest is the answer any more either.

The deck is now ridiculously stacked towards the billionaires, they don't give a crap about protests. They have a strong grip on politicians and thanks to social media they control the narrative and strongly influence elections.

So what are the effective levers for the many people shafted by the system?

I agree murder and violence should never be the answer, but there is an element of the elite forcing this behaviour. Make people desperate enough and they'll do desperate things. Spread fear and hate and they'll do hateful things.
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In the past the common man has had a lot less power than they have now (no voting rights for example) yes despite that we have managed to form a democracy and legal system that brings us to our current political and governmental situation which may not be perfect but is a lot better than many other countries.

It's a struggle yes, but in time things do change with legitimate protest, voting and lobbying. It takes time, but it does happen.
 
red_harrington said:
In the past the common man has had a lot less power than they have now (no voting rights for example) yes despite that we have managed to form a democracy and legal system that brings us to our current political and governmental situation which may not be perfect but is a lot better than many other countries.

It's a struggle yes, but in time things do change with legitimate protest, voting and lobbying. It takes time, but it does happen.
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And violence was part of forcing political change on the example you have given. How many workers died in the fight for beter conditions and rights? How many suffragettes died to get the vote for women? How did the third estate get the vote in France? How did slavery get abolished in America?

It is not as simplistic as you are making out here. Political violence as a tool has been used since the beginning of recorded history, by the ruling and under classes.
 
RavsFan said:
All or most of that may be true, but vigilantism and murder is not the solution, it is just yet another step toward breakdown in society and a step back to the dark ages. I can’t see anyone truly wanting to do the right thing by its people in this global world. I am not sure any one govrnment could alone anyway.

Greed exists in all walks of life to a varying degree. You will have your own episodes of personal greed, we all do, we are somehow conditioned to it. Most can control it and are grateful for what we have, but we all experience temptation at times. We’d all love the 6 balls to come up with our numbers on it. How many of us would use that for the good of strangers, not many S
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Society?
There is a problem here - it isn’t one dimensional. People live in different societies in different countries.
If you can’t get health care in the USA you are already in ‘the dark ages’ where you are downtrodden, ill, and forgotten about as some around you wallow in $.

This whole issue of make change by signing a petition is exactly what they want us to believe. It serves ‘their society’.
 
JonnyHistory said:
And violence was part of forcing political change on the example you have given. How many workers died in the fight for beter conditions and rights? How many suffragettes died to get the vote for women? How did the third estate get the vote in France? How did slavery get abolished in America?

It is not as simplistic as you are making out here. Political violence as a tool has been used since the beginning of recorded history, by the ruling and under classes.
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Salt Marches with Ghandi? Montgomery Bus in Alabama? And even things like this have shaped our history

For every achievement through violence there are also achievements through peaceful protest.

As a civilised society, this is the way we should be moving, not regressing to violence.
 
red_harrington said:
In the past the common man has had a lot less power than they have now (no voting rights for example) yes despite that we have managed to form a democracy and legal system that brings us to our current political and governmental situation which may not be perfect but is a lot better than many other countries.

It's a struggle yes, but in time things do change with legitimate protest, voting and lobbying. It takes time, but it does happen.
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I don't think anything has really changed. Democracy is an illusion. The rich get richer whoever is in charge. They argue between each other on how to achieve that and keeping us in a state of acceptance and tolerance, rather than violent protest is the only reason any decisions are made for our benefit. We're free enough to not kick up too much of a fuss but we are kept separate from the very wealthy. They live in their own little bubble.
 
There is absolutely no way he will be able to get a fair trial anywhere in New York or anywhere else in America, unless he pleads guilty of course. They have given him a proper old fashioned "perp walk" and released multiple images to he media of him both in custody and before the incident.
 
TS4Red said:
Tin foil hat on here. But they'll absolutely fill his phone/ laptop with horrible images etc (I think you know what I mean) can't have the lower classes uniting together can they. Once the public hear he's a Wrongun that'll be that.
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You do realise that, by choosing to murder someone in cold blood he's already shown that his thought processes put him in the "wrongun" category by civil society standards?
 
Mayor Goldie Wilson said:
There is absolutely no way he will be able to get a fair trial anywhere in New York or anywhere else in America, unless he pleads guilty of course. They have given him a proper old fashioned "perp walk" and released multiple images to he media of him both in custody and before the incident.
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A fair trial would rightly see him imprisoned for a long time for cold blooded murder.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
In this country, one.

And was it suffragettes who won the vote or suffragists? And was it the violent campaign that won the vote?
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I like how you cherry picked this one example.

One person died but their campaign had several acts of violence over their campaigning. That death brought huge attention to the campaign and undoubtedly had an impact on them winning the vote. Was it solely responsible, no. Things are never just achieved in isolation, was violence an important part in winning the vote, yes.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
Off the top of my head: A sit in, a cyber attack, a boycott, leaking internal emails, a general strike.
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A cyber attack. Illegal would mean jail.
Leaking internal emails, they would need to hack to get them, illegal would mean jail.
Boycott means they have no medical coverage.
A sit in would see them arrested and has been used to no effect after 2008 and more in recent memory.
General strike I agree could work but when less than 40% of the country are unionised and health care is linked to employment it becomes an impossibility to do without putting you and your family at grave risk.

When people are pushed into a corner they do desperate things. As I stated I don't condone his actions but I sure as hell sympathise with his plight and understand why he took the action he did.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
In this country, one.

And was it suffragettes who won the vote or suffragists? And was it the violent campaign that won the vote?
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The first world war probably had the biggest part to play in women being given the right to vote in 1918, but even then with restrictions which weren't lifted until 1928.
The peaceful lobbying until that point was important, but there us an argument that the more militant acts did more harm than good. Playing right into the hands of the male MPs who argued that women were too emotional and irrational to be trusted with a vote.
 
Rofesleg said:
The first world war probably had the biggest part to play in women being given the right to vote in 1918, but even then with restrictions which weren't lifted until 1928.
The peaceful lobbying until that point was important, but there us an argument that the more militant acts did more harm than good. Playing right into the hands of the male MPs who argued that women were too emotional and irrational to be trusted with a vote.
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WHast you state here is true but discounts how the more violent acts captured more public attention to their plight.
 
TeaCider said:
A fair trial would rightly see him imprisoned for a long time for cold blooded murder.
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I fully agree, I just think the way they have courted public and press attention over the last 24 hours makes the prospect of him getting a fair trial much more difficult, therefore increasing the chances he will walk away from it
 
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