Labour's October Budget

[Scrote]

You say the money is there, without wishing to seem to be facetious, if you know where it is and how easily it can be obtained why not explain to us all where and how and we’ll all write to our local MP’s telling them.

It's everywhere. You just (as a government) have to decide which chunks you think are worth chasing.

A quick google shows that there are 2,849,000 millionaires in the UK. I've no idea how that's calculated or where that wealth is tied up but as a starter for 10 you could legislate for everyone with £1M to pay a 1% wealth tax on their first £1M. That would raise £28.5Bn (if my maths is correct) and would barely dent the coffers of those millionaires.

Make it 1% per million and you're suddenly looking at a HUGE chunk of money that, in all reality, wouldn't be missed.

Obviously a large amount of money would just disappear off-shore but then you look at property prices and business interests etc. to determine wealth. Either open up your books or accept the valuation from HMRC sort of thing.

It just requires the political will.

And for those worried about people 'stuck' with inflated assets through no fault of their own, you can quite easily create a formula based on how long someone has been a resident.

Taxing earnings might be easier but in the long run it does very little in terms of wealth redistribution - it's much like the FFP rules preventing e.g. Newcastle competing with Man City.

the politics of envy

And just in case this comes back up - politicians can decide how they want society to function. If enough people vote for them then they should be allowed to make changes as they see fit - as long as it's done legally.

"the politics of envy" is just another right-wing trope to make it more difficult for any form of levelling up.

But, I’m struggling to see how you pass a law saying - ‘although X is doing nothing illegal, we want them to pay more tax in the UK’.

You don't. You pass a law that says, in future this will be illegal. Labour needed to gain power so that they could effect legislation - no point being shy about it now.

 

[1finny]

It's everywhere. You just (as a government) have to decide which chunks you think are worth chasing.

A quick google shows that there are 2,849,000 millionaires in the UK. I've no idea how that's calculated or where that wealth is tied up but as a starter for 10 you could legislate for everyone with £1M to pay a 1% wealth tax on their first £1M. That would raise £28.5Bn (if my maths is correct) and would barely dent the coffers of those millionaires.

Make it 1% per million and you're suddenly looking at a HUGE chunk of money that, in all reality, wouldn't be missed.

Obviously a large amount of money would just disappear off-shore but then you look at property prices and business interests etc. to determine wealth. Either open up your books or accept the valuation from HMRC sort of thing.

It just requires the political will.

And for those worried about people 'stuck' with inflated assets through no fault of their own, you can quite easily create a formula based on how long someone has been a resident.

Taxing earnings might be easier but in the long run it does very little in terms of wealth redistribution - it's much like the FFP rules preventing e.g. Newcastle competing with Man City.


And just in case this comes back up - politicians can decide how they want society to function. If enough people vote for them then they should be allowed to make changes as they see fit - as long as it's done legally.

"the politics of envy" is just another right-wing trope to make it more difficult for any form of levelling up.


You don't. You pass a law that says, in future this will be illegal. Labour needed to gain power so that they could effect legislation - no point being shy about it now.

I really like wealth tax on income - easy to do, unavoidable, and not enough to make them hide it.

 

[Roseberrytop86]

Hang on a min
No one is stopping or complaining about anyone working hard and using their money as they see fit - whilst alive.

Perhaps we disagree on one point.
Privilege is a special right granted to selected people so, in my view, inheritance falls into that.
My partner and I have no parents or grandparents and weren’t lucky enough to get a penny.
No bother at all by the way - my mum and dad grafted for very penny they could but weren’t fortunate enough to be paid well.
There are millions out there in the same boat.

For the record - left my job 4 months ago and I’m 65.
Not sure what ‘next’ looks like in terms of employment - still reviewing it but likely to be in paid employment somewhere.

Oh, and not ‘preaching’ just sharing my view.

So anyone alive no matter what they earn are not privileged and they can do whatever they want with their money?

However, as soon as they die and they leave say £1,000 to their kids the kids then become privileged? This is what posters are saying?

I think I must be living on another planet

 

[Boro.Fur]

Before you can claim the state pension, otherwise you are privileged to be able to afford to retire before then, unless due to health reasons.

I think that's an outdated concept to be honest. I'll do what I'm doing now until I'm 60, then I'll do something less stressful for a couple of years even part-time. There's no way I'm working until I'm 67, I want to be free while my health is intact. I won't be able to maintain my current standard of living but that's not the point. I'm sure that goes for a number of 'esteemed' posters on here who have retired early or plan to.

 

[Scrote]

I really like wealth tax on income - easy to do, unavoidable, and not enough to make them hide it.

But income isn't wealth. If you earn £10,000 a month and pay out £9000 in rent you aren't effectively wealthier than someone earning £5000 a month and paying £2000 in rent.

Income tax is easy to collect from PAYE so makes a lot of sense but targeting income further - over other forms of wealth - might help 'balance the books' but it won't address the underlying problems of wealth distribution.

 

[1finny]

So anyone alive no matter what they earn are not privileged and they can do whatever they want with their money?

However, as soon as they die and they leave say £1,000 to their kids the kids then become privileged? This is what posters are saying?

I think I must be living on another planet

Not saying any of that.

You earn money the right way you spend as you see fit.
If you have a lot (lets say enough to leave to others) then yes, I think its a privilege because many are in poverty.
As long as you have paid your taxes then you crack on.

You die and someone else gets it…. The person receiving it is privileged?

 

[Boro.Fur]

A quick google shows that there are 2,849,000 millionaires in the UK. I've no idea how that's calculated or where that wealth is tied up but as a starter for 10 you could legislate for everyone with £1M to pay a 1% wealth tax on their first £1M. That would raise £28.5Bn (if my maths is correct) and would barely dent the coffers of those millionaires.

Not sure how that works to be honest. How do you define wealth in terms of the assets that go to make up the £1m? Because if you include property and pension funds then there'll be some quite 'normal' people pushing £1m. Then do you include mortgaged property in the calculations?

 

[1finny]

But income isn't wealth. If you earn £10,000 a month and pay out £9000 in rent you aren't effectively wealthier than someone earning £5000 a month and paying £2000 in rent.

Income tax is easy to collect from PAYE so makes a lot of sense but targeting income further - over other forms of wealth - might help 'balance the books' but it won't address the underlying problems of wealth distribution.

Every which way there are pros and cons.
And, you are probably right - wealth distribution will change little just by income tax - that’s a whole different discussion.
One thing that’s will change it btw - is attacking inheritance tax. That is going down like a lead balloon tho.
Imagine a society where everyone starts from scratch?

But, in the short term, by increasing income tax, we get more to spend on social services.

 

[Boro4life]

Well you don't seem to be, given that your financial plans are based on grandad and granma snuffing it.

I do work hard have got a first class degree a masters degree with a distinction now am a manger at company have saved alot but still a few years from dream home as want to buy with cash don't wanna be stung in future by increased rates as seen in last few years. Just no matter how hard work will never really make the wealth unless become ceo of a ftse 100 company or a celebrity of some sort. I just don't want my grandparents farm am gonna inherited to be taxed is they something wrong with that

 

[Millbrook]

I do work hard have got a first class degree a masters degree with a distinction now am a manger at company have saved alot but still a few years from dream home as want to buy with cash don't wanna be stung in future by increased rates as seen in last few years. Just no matter how hard work will never really make the wealth unless become ceo of a ftse 100 company or a celebrity of some sort. I just don't want my grandparents farm am gonna inherited to be taxed is they something wrong with that

Check out offset mortgages.
If you have more cash than you need for a deposit and could still save after paying the mortgage an offset mortgage may get you your house quicker.

 

[Roseberrytop86]

I think that's an outdated concept to be honest. I'll do what I'm doing now until I'm 60, then I'll do something less stressful for a couple of years even part-time. There's no way I'm working until I'm 67, I want to be free while my health is intact. I won't be able to maintain my current standard of living but that's not the point. I'm sure that goes for a number of 'esteemed' posters on here who have retired early or plan to.

Outdated concept, think you’ll find that the state retirement age is not a concept. But badge it however you want to suit you option.

I’ve been working for 30 years and will definitely not be able to retire and live comfortably without the state pension to help, so anyone who is able to retire or cut their working days before the state retirement age is definitely privileged in my humble opinion.

Granted that many disagree.

 

[Boro.Fur]

Outdated concept, think you’ll find that the state retirement age is not a concept. But badge it however you want to suit you option.

No I inferred that waiting until your state pension age before retiring is an outdated concept. Many people have jobs/professions that simply can't be done at state pension age so you plan accordingly. That's got nothing to do with privilege.

I’ve been working for 30 years and will definitely not be able to retire and live comfortably without the state pension to help, so anyone who is able to retire or cut their working days before the state retirement age is definitely privileged in my humble opinion.

Well if this is a pi$$ing contest I've been working for over 40 years but I plan to cut my cloth accordingly as many others will also do. Without getting into an argument I don't think privileged is the right word because it implies some form of undeserved advantage.

 

[Scrote]

Every which way there are pros and cons.
And, you are probably right - wealth distribution will change little just by income tax - that’s a whole different discussion.
One thing that’s will change it btw - is attacking inheritance tax. That is going down like a lead balloon tho.
Imagine a society where everyone starts from scratch?

But, in the short term, by increasing income tax, we get more to spend on social services.

Obviously there are a ton of things that need to be looked at to make society more equitable. Inheritance tax would be a lot less of an issue if youngsters didn't need 10x salary to get on the housing ladder. The wealth that is tied up in assets is the problem that needs solving.

Labour need to get it right in October though or they'll rapidly lose support. Starmer has already started making noises about needing two terms to sort out the UK but that only works if he's bold now. The longer nothing happens (or appears to be happening) the less likely a second term will become.

Not going to rush into judgement though. Labour have their majority and now need to prove people like me wrong.

 

[Roseberrytop86]

No I inferred that waiting until your state pension age before retiring is an outdated concept. Many people have jobs/professions that simply can't be done at state pension age so you plan accordingly. That's got nothing to do with privilege.


Well if this is a pi$$ing contest I've been working for over 40 years but I plan to cut my cloth accordingly as many others will also do. Without getting into an argument I don't think privileged is the right word because it implies some form of undeserved advantage.

“waiting until your state pension age before retiring is an outdated concept”

So people wait until they reach the state pension age. Would suggest that most people don’t wait, they don’t have the option and have to work till then.

As to cutting their cloth accordingly, being able to afford foreign holidays, playing golf, going to home and away games etc, etc, after early retirement is definitely being in a privileged position compared to those struggling to pay bills and put food on the table.

Discuss taxing the rich etc but don’t be a hypocrite as many on here are

 

[Scrote]

Not sure how that works to be honest. How do you define wealth in terms of the assets that go to make up the £1m? Because if you include property and pension funds then there'll be some quite 'normal' people pushing £1m. Then do you include mortgaged property in the calculations?

As I said, you create a formula that works out what actual wealth is based on the definition you create when you bring forward the legislation.

The 2,849,000 figure is just from Google - I doubt it's correct but if it's in the right ballpark then you can do some fag-packet maths from it. I'm quite sure the government have far more accurate figures.

Someone asked how you'd even start to go about it - that's how I'd start.

 

[Boro.Fur]

“waiting until your state pension age before retiring is an outdated concept”

So people wait until they reach the state pension age. Would suggest that most people don’t wait, they don’t have the option and have to work till then.

As to cutting their cloth accordingly, being able to afford foreign holidays, playing golf, going to home and away games etc, etc, after early retirement is definitely being in a privileged position compared to those struggling to pay bills and put food on the table.

Discuss taxing the rich etc but don’t be a hypocrite as many on here are

I think you've got the right hump with me mate and I can't for the life of me think why.
I don't thnk I could name one poster on this forum who I know has retired early and can afford to do all of the things you've listed there.

 

[Boro.Fur]

As I said, you create a formula that works out what actual wealth is based on the definition you create when you bring forward the legislation.

The 2,849,000 figure is just from Google - I doubt it's correct but if it's in the right ballpark then you can do some fag-packet maths from it. I'm quite sure the government have far more accurate figures.

Someone asked how you'd even start to go about it - that's how I'd start.

I just remember the child benefit debacle years ago where if one adult in the household earned more than £50k then the child benefit became tapered even if the partner earned nothing. Meanwhile Paul and Jacqui next door earning £49k each lost nothing of the benefit. The Government of the day said it was too complex to administer properly so they went for the easy option.

 

[sherlock]

I do work hard have got a first class degree a masters degree with a distinction now am a manger at company have saved alot but still a few years from dream home as want to buy with cash don't wanna be stung in future by increased rates as seen in last few years. Just no matter how hard work will never really make the wealth unless become ceo of a ftse 100 company or a celebrity of some sort. I just don't want my grandparents farm am gonna inherited to be taxed is they something wrong with that

Where are you living while saving up?

 

[Boro4life]

Where are you living while saving up?

With parents still is kinda main way people my generation end up owning a home tbh

 

[sherlock]

With parents still is kinda main way people my generation end up owning a home tbh

So you’re living at home whilst saving up to buy a house with cash, and you’ll inherit a farm, and you don’t consider yourself privileged?

Righto.