Kier Starmer

[Duke]

Wheres your condemnation of Israeli Apartheid:

Where armed soldiers attack Palestinian women and children.
Daily abduct and detained palestinians without charge and access to legal representation.
Israel abuses children as young as 10 who are held in jail without charge.
Forces Palestinians to demolish their own homes and steals palestinian land.
Armed soldiers protect extremist colonist who bear arms, physically attack and kill palestinians, allow them to uproot orchards and demolish farm lands.
Israeli Apartheid legally forbids Palestinians equal rights with Jewish citizens.
Palestinians are forced to live in refugee camps in thewior own country.
An Israeli is allowed to steal a Palestinians land, but a Palestinian hasnt the right to protect his land?

Have you been to Palestine?
I have.
I can educate you first hand "if you like".

Right, so we can agree on this, we are all well within our rights to criticize Israel for their treatment of Palestine, though that is of course not helped by said Palestine state and Iran being ideologically committed to destroying Israel (and Jews) and being uninterested in any peaceful arrangements. That said, I will always push for two state solution, and always criticse the actions of Israel as a higher power in the area...that does not mean far right islamists in Hamas get a free pass, nor does it mean Iran get a pass.

In what other situation would you have no issue with a Labour politician supporting and sponsoring a state that murders gays and effectively imprisons women and minorities? As much as I like Jeremy Corbyn, he has some well established cognitive dissonance when it comes to international politics.

Hamas don't want to come to an arrangement that sees Palestinian borders that should have been in place since the 1950's, historically they have wanted to purge Jews from the face of the earth, a huge majority of Jews who have absolutely nothing to do with Jewish homeland or the occupation. Are you telling me you support Hamas and their commitment to vanquishing Jews from the middle east because the UK and UN granted them land there 70 years ago? Where's your care for the innocent jews, many of which support Palestine, is it ok for Hamas to drop bombs on those schools?

They are not going anywhere, that much is obvious, which is why it's ridiculous to support the cause of Hamas who have been completely set on Jewish genocide for decades. Most sensible people support a two state solution through a proper peace process. A Jewish person has every right to be concerned with anyone who supports an anti semitic group like Hamas, but feel free to correct me.

This is where the 'ambiguous' black and white, tribal thinking definitively fails. The idea that supporting Palestinian rights and criticising Israel somehow means you cannot criticise a far right Islamist party that want to purge the earth of Jews is a bit silly isn't it? Hamas are full of primitive right wing idiots that hijacked the cause for Palestinian rights.

 

[1finny]

Right, so we can agree on this, we are all well within our rights to criticize Israel for their treatment of Palestine, though that is of course not helped by said Palestine state and Iran being ideologically committed to destroying Israel (and Jews) and being uninterested in any peaceful arrangements. That said, I will always push for two state solution, and always criticse the actions of Israel as a higher power in the area...that does not mean far right islamists in Hamas get a free pass, nor does it mean Iran get a pass.

In what other situation would you have no issue with a Labour politician supporting and sponsoring a state that murders gays and effectively imprisons women and minorities? As much as I like Jeremy Corbyn, he has some well established cognitive dissonance when it comes to international politics.

Hamas don't want to come to an arrangement that sees Palestinian borders that should have been in place since the 1950's, historically they have wanted to purge Jews from the face of the earth, a huge majority of Jews who have absolutely nothing to do with Jewish homeland or the occupation. Are you telling me you support Hamas and their commitment to vanquishing Jews from the middle east because the UK and UN granted them land there 70 years ago? Where's your care for the innocent jews, many of which support Palestine, is it ok for Hamas to drop bombs on those schools?

They are not going anywhere, that much is obvious, which is why it's ridiculous to support the cause of Hamas who have been completely set on Jewish genocide for decades. Most sensible people support a two state solution through a proper peace process. A Jewish person has every right to be concerned with anyone who supports an anti semitic group like Hamas, but feel free to correct me.

This is where the 'ambiguous' black and white, tribal thinking definitively fails. The idea that supporting Palestinian rights and criticising Israel somehow means you cannot criticise a far right Islamist party that want to purge the earth of Jews is a bit silly isn't it? Hamas are full of primitive right wing idiots that hijacked the cause for Palestinian rights.

I worked in the Middle East for a number of years and met many exiled Palestinians. Their situation is absolutely shocking. Just trying to get back to the country to visit their family is a wretched experience and fraught with risk.

Had many a discussion about ‘what to do’ (a favourite phrase of their’s) and I was really surprised about their condemnation of Hamas. Their view - ‘the key problem to finding a solution’

Ref Anti Semitism under JC.
The defence appears to be ‘Labour was as bad as most poliitical parties but better than the Tories’. That is a ‘wow’ moment for me.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

The defence appears to be ‘Labour was as bad as most poliitical parties but better than the Tories’. That is a ‘wow’ moment for me.

Which begs a rather obvious question.

 

[HarryVegas]

I worked in the Middle East for a number of years and met many exiled Palestinians. Their situation is absolutely shocking. Just trying to get back to the country to visit their family is a wretched experience and fraught with risk.

Had many a discussion about ‘what to do’ (a favourite phrase of their’s) and I was really surprised about their condemnation of Hamas. Their view - ‘the key problem to finding a solution’

Ref Anti Semitism under JC.
The defence appears to be ‘Labour was as bad as most poliitical parties but better than the Tories’. That is a ‘wow’ moment for me.

The wow for me is that people still voted for the Tories. I wasn't a fan of JC but the anti-Semitism thing was an invention IMO.

 

[Laughing]

But doesn't really excuse Labour BBG. In any organization of size you will get good people and bad, racists and liberals. It is part of the tapistry of life, unfortunately.

 

[Alvez_48]

But doesn't really excuse Labour BBG. In any organization of size you will get good people and bad, racists and liberals. It is part of the tapistry of life, unfortunately.

But it does raise the question.. if there was no more anti-Semitism in labour than the Tories or the libdems why did the media hound Labour about it for the last 2.5 years of Corbyns leadership and not the others?
Surely you can agree it was the wheels of establishment turning to ensure a principled individual who wanted to better the lives of poor and middle income families at the expense of status quo did not get in power and not because there was any actual concern about said anti-Semitism?
I can completely understand people disagreeing with his policy positions but it was always personal attacks.

 

[HarryVegas]

But it does raise the question.. if there was no more anti-Semitism in labour than the Tories or the libdems why did the media hound Labour about it for the last 2.5 years of Corbyns leadership and not the others?
Surely you can agree it was the wheels of establishment turning to ensure a principled individual who wanted to better the lives of poor and middle income families at the expense of status quo did not get in power and not because there was any actual concern about said anti-Semitism?
I can completely understand people disagreeing with his policy positions but it was always personal attacks.

Exactly this.

 

[HolgateCorner]

Exactly this.

Plenty of Labour MPs were saying there was a problem though which is an open goal for the Tory propaganda machine. Personally don’t think it was the decisive factor, Brexit won the day for the third time in three years, Corbyn’s position on it was fatally kicking the can yet again down the road and was seen as a back door attempt to remain.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

But doesn't really excuse Labour BBG. In any organization of size you will get good people and bad, racists and liberals. It is part of the tapistry of life, unfortunately.

You say it doesn't excuse labour but your second sentence more or less excuses every large organisation. The fact remains that there was far more focus on Labour than on any other party or organisation in the country. If we are serious about this problem condemnation would be across the board.
Here is the result of a cross party investigation into institutional racism within the labour party. Chuka Umunna signed this:

 

[SuperStu]

Just not true again, pure spin presented as fact.

The anti semitism stuff isn't going to stick on Starmer like it did with Corbyn as he hasn't called Hamas his friends and asked people to support their cause etc

Seems a bit hypocritical. The "friends" comment is obviously well documented but I don't remember seeing Corbyn ever asking people to "support" Hamas. Hands up and apologies if I'm wrong on that point - my impression has always been that Corbyn's position was that long term peace could only come through dialogue with both sides. As opposed to picking a side to support and backing them irrespective.

Blatant lie, he commissioned an investigation into the report and the contents within it almost immediately.

The report was leaked a matter of days into his leadership so the idea that he was never going to do anything with it is unfounded. The second Momentum lost the leadership contest they were going to leak the report regardless.

For the sake of pedantry I think Starmer was made leader on the 4th of April and the document leaked on the 11th. So not exactly immediately/the second. And he was presumably involved in the decision not to send it to the EHRC to go towards their investigation in to the Labour party so that implies he wasn't planning on acting on it. And as mentioned in other posts "commissioning a report" is a well known burying tactic for politicians, and with this example being a report in to a report I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to not see it as some great act of leadership.

 

[1finny]

But it does raise the question.. if there was no more anti-Semitism in labour than the Tories or the libdems why did the media hound Labour about it for the last 2.5 years of Corbyns leadership and not the others?
Surely you can agree it was the wheels of establishment turning to ensure a principled individual who wanted to better the lives of poor and middle income families at the expense of status quo did not get in power and not because there was any actual concern about said anti-Semitism?
I can completely understand people disagreeing with his policy positions but it was always personal attacks.

The media hounded JC because that’s what they do.
Best not to give them an open goal and get your ducks in a row.

Standards for the Labour Party regarding any kind of bigotry ought to be higher than any other.
They weren’t in regard to anti semitism and the top team got battered.
Quelle Surprise

 

[Alvez_48]

The media hounded JC because that’s what they do.
Best not to give them an open goal and get your ducks in a row.

Standards for the Labour Party regarding any kind of bigotry ought to be higher than any other.
They weren’t in regard to anti semitism and the top team got battered.
Quelle Surprise

Just not true believe what you want but the facts are that every section of the media was utterly disproportionate including the BBC in their negative coverage of Corbyn than any other leader in the past 30 years it's literally been covered by studies done by LSE before the first GE that he faced and got 10x worse following that election. If JC had received fair coverage over his tenure as Labour leader I don't think there can be any doubt that he would currently be prime minister for better or worse.

The sad thing is now Starmer is getting the exact same treatment by people like me that you're giving JC. Maybe I'm looking for him to be a naughty boy because I believed JC was the one chance I've had in my lifetime (only a youngun aren't I ) to help people but then he is giving people like me early ammunition to doubt his principles.
Progressives we'd be dangerous if united (or had common sense as my dad would say).

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

Standards for the Labour Party regarding any kind of bigotry ought to be higher than any other.

Holding one party to higher standards than others is no way to tackle any kind of bigotry.

They weren’t in regard to anti semitism and the top team got battered.

And battered by some their own MP's and executives as the leaked report demonstrates. I don't know if you have read any of the report but the offences committed in it are horrendous; crying out for suspensions that Starmer has just not addressed.

 

[SuperStu]

Are you telling me you support Hamas and their commitment to vanquishing Jews from the middle east because the UK and UN granted them land there 70 years ago? Where's your care for the innocent jews, many of which support Palestine, is it ok for Hamas to drop bombs on those schools?

This is where the 'ambiguous' black and white, tribal thinking definitively fails.

Duke, do you genuinely not see the black and white tribal thinking in your own posts?

It's very strange to me that you've asked a hypothetical about Hamas dropping bombs on schools as in reality the reverse is much more likely.

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

The UNs Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs website records 5580 (1247) Palestinian fatalities and 249 (19) Israeli fatalities in the Israeli-Palestine conflict since 2008. The figures in brackets are the number of under 18s included in the total figure.

 

[Laughing]

I don't disagree that Corbyn, prticularly was battered by the press and for very obvious reasons that had nothing to do with the state of Israel or the Jewish community.

He didn't handle the situation very well though and he, and some members of the party made it very easy for the media.

I liked Corbyn, and I voted for Labour, and did so because I wanted him in No. 10. This doesn't absolve him of blame though. Principles are all well and good, and I would like a person of principle running the country. A general election is a free for all as far as the press are concerned, and he didn't help himself.

Starmer may well play the game better, and providing his policies are a bit left of Nazi, it has to be an improvement on conservative rule. Baby steps might be the way to go.

 

[FartingGnome]

Plenty of Labour MPs were saying there was a problem though which is an open goal for the Tory propaganda machine. Personally don’t think it was the decisive factor, Brexit won the day for the third time in three years, Corbyn’s position on it was fatally kicking the can yet again down the road and was seen as a back door attempt to remain.

You need to look at who's saying what. Have a peek at who the outspoken Labour MPs were and draw your own conclusions.

 

[Duke]

Duke, do you genuinely not see the black and white tribal thinking in your own posts?

It's very strange to me that you've asked a hypothetical about Hamas dropping bombs on schools as in reality the reverse is much more likely.

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

The UNs Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs website records 5580 (1247) Palestinian fatalities and 249 (19) Israeli fatalities in the Israeli-Palestine conflict since 2008. The figures in brackets are the number of under 18s included in the total figure.

This is a deflection I'm afraid and doesn't really make sense as a 'gotcha' considering I've already said that we should be criticising Israel heavily for their role. Its also not fair to just look at causalities, they are the power in the area surrounded by countries that are not shy about wanting to wipe them off the planet. They may overstep their mark and go too far, but they are not the aggressor and they simply wouldn't exist anymore if it was Hamas who had the nukes.

The point is that historically Hamas have had no interest in negotiating peace and have ideologically committed themselves to Jewish genocide. They are far right Islamists with views straught from the stone age, a literal barrier to any possibility of new borders or a peace process.

If you think it's acceptable for Hamas to be an aggressor in this nold because Israel are much more powerful, then you'd have to be ok with millions of innocent Jewish people facing death for crimes they didn't commit, the zionist Government does not represent the average Israel citizen.

Where is the black and white tribal thinking? This comment doesn't makes sense as what I'm doing is the literal opposite, I've provided criticisms of both Israel and Hamas within the context of the conflict.

 

[Duke]

Seems a bit hypocritical. The "friends" comment is obviously well documented but I don't remember seeing Corbyn ever asking people to "support" Hamas. Hands up and apologies if I'm wrong on that point - my impression has always been that Corbyn's position was that long term peace could only come through dialogue with both sides. As opposed to picking a side to support and backing them irrespective.



For the sake of pedantry I think Starmer was made leader on the 4th of April and the document leaked on the 11th. So not exactly immediately/the second. And he was presumably involved in the decision not to send it to the EHRC to go towards their investigation in to the Labour party so that implies he wasn't planning on acting on it. And as mentioned in other posts "commissioning a report" is a well known burying tactic for politicians, and with this example being a report in to a report I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to not see it as some great act of leadership.

Well this is what he actually said and it's much worse than just calling them friends with inclusive language:

"The idea that an organisation that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about long-term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region should be labelled as a terrorist organisation by the British government is really a big, big historical mistake and I would invite the government to reconsider their position on this matter and start talking directly to Hamas and Hezbollah…”

What is he on about, the good of Palestinian people!? Political and social justice!? This is the same terror group that throw them tens of thousands of kids in training camps every year and spend all their money trying to kill Jewis rather than uplift the life of Palestinians. The same group that literally oppose all the freedoms and humans rights that Corbyn has fought for his whole life.

There's not a chance he believes this stuff, he's just heavily entrenched in the anti colonionalist narrative that he's willing to have severe blindspots like this. The same with Iran, he will celebrate the Iranian Revolution despite it representing horrendous human rights and political/social justice. In what other situation would he would support to countries like this? Imagine if it was a European right wing country that suddenly decided to start throwing gays off buildings and reducing women to objects of ownership, I doubt he'd be on their TV network shaking hands and enjoying the company.

Corbyn should have condemned Hamas and made it very clear that the path to peace and progress was not through a terrorist group that is obsessed with the idea of Jeiwsh Jihad, not just in Gaza but 'anywhere they land'. Their last election was in 2006, they've completely hijacked a legitimate cause for proper negotiations and a push to reclaim rights in Gaza, they are not a force for good. Im not sure how anybody can be surprised that he was such an essy anti semitism target given how he talks about literal anti semite terrorist groups. Itd be like Boris supporting Nazi groups that are actively recruiting, bombing and talking about killing an entire race, I doubt we'd all be sat here giving him a pass.

As for the report, I've no doubt that he wasn't going to release it a week into his leadership and I don't think he should have, it would have been moronic. As much as I want to see some justice regarding certain individuals behind the party, it makes no sense for a new leader to drag his own party through the mud and expose his corrupt it is so nearly in his tenure, when his primary job is to rebuild credibility.

Appointing a QC and indpedental panel to have a proper investigation into the report doesn't really fit with 'standard' procedure for keeping some hush hush. If it amounts to absolutely nothing then we will see, but it's too early to say that.

 

[Duke]

I worked in the Middle East for a number of years and met many exiled Palestinians. Their situation is absolutely shocking. Just trying to get back to the country to visit their family is a wretched experience and fraught with risk.

Had many a discussion about ‘what to do’ (a favourite phrase of their’s) and I was really surprised about their condemnation of Hamas. Their view - ‘the key problem to finding a solution’

Ref Anti Semitism under JC.
The defence appears to be ‘Labour was as bad as most poliitical parties but better than the Tories’. That is a ‘wow’ moment for me.

Yep - they are not a force for good and the inability from the likes of Corbyn to separate them from Palestinian rights has been a big issue.

People keep asking the same question in here thats already been answered. Why did it stop all of a sudden etc why was the coverage so unfair? As if someone is arguing it wasn't. The reality is that it was so easy to throw this stuff at Corbyn because he has a murky history with the Hamas and Hezbollah stuff and did a poor job of distancing himself from it. That's the reality, fair or unfair, whether you like it or not. I obviously don't think it was far as a lot of it was bull****, but he made himself a very easy target.

This doesn't mean there wasn't issues with anti semitism in the party though, we already know there was and the debate seemed to stop when Naz Shah and other examples where mentioned as that doesn't suit the 'made up nonsense' angle. Its one of those though that requires people to understand that certain truths are not always mutually exclusive. It can still be an issue that needed to be addressed without it being as it an issue as the media made out.

 

[otto62]

I’m waiting for Roofie to answer this question at the third time of asking:

Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?