Keir Starmers speech

If I'm honest, I don't really believe that you didn't know that's what I was referring to. Feels a lot like a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters.
great, but you're wrong.

I agree abstaining has no outcome on the vote whatsoever.
Of course it does, it means the Tories can't argue that Labour are apposed to the supposed advantages, however tenuous they are. Remember also that he knows they need to appease the middle ground voters, he can't give teh Tories ammunition to shoot him down. Abstinence is effectively not supporting and not opposing, that's a good way of staying out of this fight.

It's certainly not tactical to then sack 3 of his MPs from their roles in the shadow front bench, much less to leak their sacking to the Guido Fawkes blog before the individuals themselves are informed.
I don't particularly agree with the sackings, but if it was tactical and they refused, I can only guess he needs to understand who will support his tactics and who won't.
 
If he moves right a bit, gets elected, then moves left again that would be nice

Sounds great. But it's never happened before and there's nothing to indicate that's what will happen.

It cracks me up that during the Corbyn era Labour members were being called cultists and yet now Starmer's fans just make up little stories to justify their support in him.
 
great, but you're wrong.

Well fair enough, now you know. He made 10 pledges that were the basis for Labour members choosing him to be their party leader. This week hes publically dropped several.

Abstinence is effectively not supporting and not opposing, that's a good way of staying out of this fight.

When you're the leader of the opposition it's very important to be seen as not opposing. (y) The route to gaining 100+ seats is through everyone knowing you have no opinions or values. (y) This makes sense and is very forensic. (y)
 
Well fair enough, now you know. He made 10 pledges that were the basis for Labour members choosing him to be their party leader. This week hes publically dropped several.
Which specific ones, and in what way did he drop them?

When you're the leader of the opposition it's very important to be seen as not opposing. (y) The route to gaining 100+ seats is through everyone knowing you have no opinions or values. (y) This makes sense and is very forensic. (y)
You need to pick and choose your fights tactically, and so far he appears to be doing that.
 
The left: Torture is bad.
The right: Torture is good.
Sensible centrist middle ground adults in the room: Torture half the people half of the time, and do it during committee stage.
That's a little silly. Torture is an extremist measure. Centrists don't tend to agree with extremist policies. Try again, but be a bit more honest with your example. Centrism rejects extremist policies, they don't half accept them.
 
Which specific ones, and in what way did he drop them?

Number 4 and number 10. Not sure why you'd need that specifying though, you didn't even know he had any pledges an hour ago.

You need to pick and choose your fights tactically

Very true, but you do need to eventually pick a fight. It's a shame but the Labour party now is back to where it was under Miliband. No self-confidence, stuck in analysis paralysis. Nobody should be surprised when the gains made in 2024 are very modest.
 
Number 4 and number 10. Not sure why you'd need that specifying though, you didn't even know he had any pledges an hour ago.
You're being facetious now, I know he had pledges in his leadership, I simply misunderstood your statement that the pledges you talked about were general election pledges in opposition, rather than Starmers leadership pledges.

So his pledges:
4. Promote peace and human rights - No more illegal wars. Introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act and put human rights at the heart of foreign policy. Review all UK arms sales and make us a force for international peace and justice.
10. Effective opposition to the Tories
Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament – linked up to our mass membership and a professional election operation. Never lose sight of the votes ‘lent’ to the Tories in 2019. Unite our party, promote pluralism and improve our culture. Robust action to eradicate the scourge of antisemitism. Maintain our collective links with the unions.

So His specific statement number 4, is to introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act, he can't do that until he is in power.
Point 10, the proof is in the pudding, can he gain enough votes to oppose the Tories into a failed election.
 
He hasn't sorted brexit, there are a whole host of issues not resolved and a whole host of people who voted for brexit getting something they didn't vote for and in fact were promised wouldn't be the outcome. What a ridiculous statement.
We have left the EU and that is what I meant. There is nothing ridiculous thank you about stating a matter of fact
 
We have left the EU and that is what I meant. There is nothing ridiculous thank you about stating a matter of fact
The guy is the prime minister. He is supposed to be strategic. He should be creating OUTCOMES, not OUTPUTs. This is MBA 101 stuff.

He should be working on a programme level not a project level. His role is to create benefits, not ti tick a box and declare "yup, that's done", without actually checking the 'benefits' can be created and value retained. Honestly, it's beyond ridiculous to claim he has succeeded in this. He hasn't he has utterly failed to create the perceived benefits that were promised by him and his predecessors. In fact all he has done is create massive issues and risks, at a time when massive issues and risks are the last thing we need.

You say he is the only politician that could achieve brexit, he is one of the few politicians that have the lack of care to take these decisions seriously and fully consider the future operating model for this country.
 
We have left the EU and that is what I meant. There is nothing ridiculous thank you about stating a matter of fact
I could promise my family a new kitchen in my house, then go to Wickes website and order one. Then get the slegehammer out the shed and smash my current kitchen. "Don't worry family we will have our new kitchen delivered Jan 1st". Guess what Jan the first I have my new kitchen, it's on a bunch of pallets in my drive. I can't gain benefit from this new kitchen, because I don't know how to fit it, it's a gas oven so I need a certified fitter. Technically, I got my new kitchen, I achieved what I said I would do. But the situation isn't creating any value and in fact is detrimental. That is Boris's get brexit done
 
I could promise my family a new kitchen in my house, then go to Wickes website and order one. Then get the slegehammer out the shed and smash my current kitchen. "Don't worry family we will have our new kitchen delivered Jan 1st". Guess what Jan the first I have my new kitchen, it's on a bunch of pallets in my drive. I can't gain benefit from this new kitchen, because I don't know how to fit it, it's a gas oven so I need a certified fitter. Technically, I got my new kitchen, I achieved what I said I would do. But the situation isn't creating any value and in fact is detrimental. That is Boris's get brexit done

Did your family want the new kitchen? You seem to be forcing it on them?
 
If you're a left wing/socialist person, there's not a lot of appeal in a sequence of governments that goes: Tories get in and reform to the right, Labour centrists get in and keep things the same, Tories get it and reform to the right, Labour centrists get in and keep things the same, ad infinitum.
Last night Lab
great, but you're wrong.


Of course it does, it means the Tories can't argue that Labour are apposed to the supposed advantages, however tenuous they are. Remember also that he knows they need to appease the middle ground voters, he can't give teh Tories ammunition to shoot him down. Abstinence is effectively not supporting and not opposing, that's a good way of staying out of this fight.


I don't particularly agree with the sackings, but if it was tactical and they refused, I can only guess he needs to understand who will support his tactics and who won't.
A former human rights lawyer should not be whipping his members to abstain on a bill that more or less turns a blind eye to torture and murder, and even if he feels that it is a tactical advantage to do so, he shouldn't be sacking those who voted with their consciences.

I saw a mention on twitter that he had leaked it to the press but didn't realise that it was to the Guido Fawkes site. Jesus?!
 
If you're a left wing/socialist person, there's not a lot of appeal in a sequence of governments that goes: Tories get in and reform to the right, Labour centrists get in and keep things the same, Tories get it and reform to the right, Labour centrists get in and keep things the same, ad infinitum.

During the 20th Century we had a Conservative PM for something like 60% of the time and Lloyd George, a Liberal, required Conservative support for 6 years.

I know by the end of the Century there had been a significant widening of inequality, but can you really say that the century was not a big shift for the left?

Universal Suffrage, Workers Rights, Pensions, Unemployment Benefit, the NHS, anti-discrimination measures, the minimum wage etc etc.

The British tend not to like big changes if they can help it. Evolution not revolution as it were. Marx laughed at the idea of Britain as a candidate for a communist revolution. So for most of the time the left win by nudging the Conservatives along gradually. The one overriding principle the Conservative Party have is staying in power, so if it a choice between keeping things as they are and losing power, or shifting slightly to the left to stay in power, then they will move, albeit reluctantly.

For the big shifts, the long overdue shifts, they don't come from the Tories usually. In and out of Europe might be the only ones. The big changes came from the Liberals 1906-1914 welfare reforms, with Asquith/Lloyd George's (and Churchill's), which in part was a response to the emerging Labour Party. Then we have Atlee's massive reforms - Health, Welfare, Housing, Nationalisation, Workers Rights, Education.

Thatcher obviously changed many things too, but even her attacks on the unions didn't impact things like H&S measures which by then were being enshrined in law.

Blair reset priorities again, with emphasis on increased spending on Education and the NHS, equality and introducing the minimum wage.
 
I could promise my family a new kitchen in my house, then go to Wickes website and order one. Then get the slegehammer out the shed and smash my current kitchen. "Don't worry family we will have our new kitchen delivered Jan 1st". Guess what Jan the first I have my new kitchen, it's on a bunch of pallets in my drive. I can't gain benefit from this new kitchen, because I don't know how to fit it, it's a gas oven so I need a certified fitter. Technically, I got my new kitchen, I achieved what I said I would do. But the situation isn't creating any value and in fact is detrimental. That is Boris's get brexit done

Since you mention pallets...


'As an EU member, the U.K. didn't need ISPM-15 compliant pallets for intra-EU trade, because the EU has an exemption between member states. That exemption will fall away after Brexit 4/ '

'Did you know it could take a day alone to prepare the paperwork just to send a crate of artwork to America to satisfy them the crate meets their standards . It’s not only pallets it’s ANYTHING that will travel in a wooden crate . And you have to use the correct wood . Good luck '
 
Did your family want the new kitchen? You seem to be forcing it on them?
We held a referendum, I told them we can keep the old kitchen or we can have a world leading kitchen, we can a kitchen that is golded in gold, cooks and cleans itself.....the manufacturer hasn't figured out how it will do that, but don't worry they'll figure it out before delivery. I promised this kitchen won't cost us money, it will actually save us money AND the remaining payments for the old kitchen I'm not going to pay that off
 
We held a referendum, I told them we can keep the old kitchen or we can have a world leading kitchen, we can a kitchen that is golded in gold, cooks and cleans itself.....the manufacturer hasn't figured out how it will do that, but don't worry they'll figure it out before delivery. I promised this kitchen won't cost us money, it will actually save us money AND the remaining payments for the old kitchen I'm not going to pay that off

And the majority voted for the new kitchen? Sounds fair to me.
 
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