BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
I got the date wrong on this. I said 2019 but it was 2018 when Starmer went off script.
Keir Starmer - FoM now a red-line
- Thread starter Scrote
- Start date
Unravel_Morrison
Well-known member
I agree and none of that would help Corbyn get elected.
Scrote
Well-known member
But it will potentially help prevent Labour having a decent run in power.
Complete U-turns by Starmer on positions he was seen to hold as a part of his core values just give the Tories and MSM an easy stick to beat him with down the line.
"Lies lies lies" will be the next three word soundbite.
How can you trust someone in Government who lies about their politics?
And that is a lot different to lying about reality to get your preferred politics implemented (not that I'm condoning that either).
Andy_W
Well-known member
Andy_W said: said:
Not quite sure what you mean? In 2019 loads of people all over the political spectrum voted Tory (mainly not the left 1/3rd mind), largely due to them wanting brexit, and they've got Brexit, the horse "won".
It's not the Brexit the majority of them wanted though, it can't be, as the versions were conflicting. So effectively they were also voting for a unicorn, but it was at least dressed up as a real horse. Or they voted for a horse, which won, but didn't realise they backed a crooked bookie, who hasn't paid out.
Loads of centre, centre left and centre right were not brexit voters too though, but in that instance, the CR would likely vote tory, CL vote Labour and centre probably be swayed by the leaders/ media. Loads of people who were skint voted brexit, and then tory, effectively falling for the lies, so much so that they would risk their own protection for it, which was lunacy.
Scrote
Well-known member
You've just explained exactly what I mean.
If people voted for for a lie and now realise they were hoodwinked, why do I need to compromise from the left to appease people on the right who are already miffed at people who put them in the position they're in.
If people won't vote Labour unless Starmer says he'll get Brexit done (whether he believes it's possible or not) then we aren't actually changing anything.
The only way to then change things later is to u-turn again at which point the Tories and MSM will scream "betrayal" and Labour will be out of power for another generation.
I'm being asked to compromise my politics to facilitate a massive fraud that will hurt my politics the most. The "lefties" will be blamed despite the "centrists" pulling the strings.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Seemingly it wasn't that much off-script, and seemingly all he was saying was the truth/ Labours thoughts:
“If we need to break the impasse, our options must include campaigning for a public vote — and nobody is ruling out Remain as an option,” he declared. His surprise comment electrified the Liverpool gathering — where delegates responded by clapping and cheering for almost a minute to show their support.
The clear backing in the hall for a second referendum was a blow to Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, who have fudged Labour’s official policy to avoid upsetting Leave-voting areas.
Aides said he “ad-libbed”. He was meant to stop after saying that if Labour could not secure a general election “we must have other options”, and say: “Labour campaigning for a public vote must be an option.” But his ad-libbed version went further, adding: “... and nobody is ruling out Remain as an option.” Two thirds of the hall joined in the prolonged ovation as he sat down.
It came a day after shadow chancellor Mr McDonnell dismayed Remain backers by giving three interviews which all hinted that staying in the EU would not be one of the options in a second referendum. After an uproar, Mr McDonnell was forced to clarify that Remain was indeed an option.
Was a tough position for Labour either way mind, they could fudge the brexit talk and lose, or they could have pushed to be a remain party and still lost, to me they fell somewhere in the middle, and lost. Labour could have done more from the lead-up to the brexit vote all the way to the lead up in 2019 but they didn't. Their best chance would have been to try and make brexit not the only issue, but that would have been difficult.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
It doesn't look like we'll be getting any closer to the EU any time soon as Starmer rules out return to the SM on the grounds that it will not help the UK economy.
www.theguardian.com
Reversing Brexit now would not help UK economy, says Keir Starmer
Rejoining single market would create even more uncertainty, says Labour leader, who instead wants a ‘better Brexit’
www.theguardian.com
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
I don't hear many people who call Starmer a liar at all. In all fairness the only people I come across are the 3-4 board members who don't like him on here! 
I don't hear many people who call Starmer a liar at all. In all fairness the only people I come across are the 3-4 board members who don't like him on here!
He must not be then
congrats.
Scrote
Well-known member
Where have I said they do?
I've said they will.
They (Tories & MSM) will quietly take a note of what has been said and what is being said now. Come the run up to the election, the question will be "how can you trust Labour when they lie about what they'll do?".
It's political stupidity.
You can fudge answers without outright lies and without pivoting on a previously held position that was part of what defined you in the public perception.
Unravel_Morrison
Well-known member
Maybe; I still go by the adage that governments tend to lose elections rather than oppositions win. It feels like this current shower of crooks have stayed in one election too many and will end up with them being disliked for a lengthy period of time.
Andy_W
Well-known member
You need to compromise, as whether you like it or not, in our current system, you will never get anything without them (those in the centre), wherever that centre sits in regard to you. The only way this won't be the case is if everyone moves where they sit on the political spectrum, which is unlikely, especially not in one term, never mind half a term.
There are gullible or ideological people all over the political spectrum, but ultimately neither will get what exactly they want, for very different reasons (or if they do it will be very short-lived), as the balance of the centre prevents it.
If you don't compromise (to get some of what you want) then you (and the worst off) will lose, and get the exact opposite of what you want, which ultimately ends up as more and more being taken away. We might have liked JC's policies, but because he lost we got May, BJ and Sunak's policies. They're causing one hell of a mess which Starmer is appealing as a viable alternative to do a repair job on.
Being idealistic might work to get the guy you want in a truly even 4 party system, but we're not in that. Even with proportional representation, you would still be relying on those same people to vote for your policies, and in return, they would expect you to vote for some of theirs (if working on a majority).
If the leader of the opposition, does not appeal to enough of the voters you need to sway from the leading party, then you lose.
It's the same with how the Tory party went too far right, a load of the centre though **** this, and Starmer was the only guy sat there to hoover up the votes, and he's got a better hoover then the previous couple of guys who came before him.
If Starmer hoovered those up and then shifted to appeal further from the centre, then he would of course lose votes.
It boils down to basic maths at the end of the day, the people in the middle are practically worth two votes, and those on either end are worth only one, the centre decides.
We've left the EU, we're out, we're not going back in anytime soon, it's too much of a political hot potato. I would love it to not be the case, but the reality says it's practically impossible, especially when you don't have your foot in the door. Shouting about it from the house over the road with no key won't make it more possible.
The people who have hurt your politics the most are those who labour have already lost to, in the last few elections. The more they win, the more we lose.
If the left pull strings to try and burn the house down from within, then Labour may shift position further right, to retain a vote share against the far right, or they will no longer truly be the opposition. Or the alternative is Labour go left, get 20% of the votes and a centrist party forms and takes over. There is no way the left wins, and gets all of what it wants, not in this system, in this country, with our people.
BoroFur
Well-known member
Of course we can get closer to the EU by making Brexit work better.It doesn't look like we'll be getting any closer to the EU any time soon as Starmer rules out return to the SM on the grounds that it will not help the UK economy.
Reversing Brexit now would not help UK economy, says Keir Starmer
Rejoining single market would create even more uncertainty, says Labour leader, who instead wants a ‘better Brexit’
He's saying that after 6 years of paralysis he's not prepared to put the country and the economy through another prolonged period of uncertainty.
Andy_W
Well-known member
That's our far-right media though, they're always going to try that, they will always have that power, and unfortunately, we have a lot of people who are daft enough to believe it. They used to hammer JC, but he had little to fight back with, or didn't make use of it.
The reality is the key issues we were facing, and now are facing are changing rapidly, policies have to change, otherwise, they become outdated. I've zero issue whatsoever with changing position if the game requires it. They're not really lying, as Labour are not in power to do anything about it. See it all the time when Tories try to pin something on Labour policy, someone just posts a chart of the last 12 years of Tories and how they've ****ed everything up. All the media can argue is that labour has changed its stance, which they might have, but this should be understandable, given the circumstances.
The tories had a manifesto and have made lies all throughout the last 3 years, they're proven as lies as they have the power to do as they wish (or actually do as they say, and not lie). This is the Tory problem, they're proven liars, whereas the media can only say Labour could be lying. It might work, but it probably won't. I'd rather vote for someone who may lie, rather than someone who has, and almost certainly will again.
The manifesto will be Labour's final position, in the lead into the election, but even that can be changed if the game changes.
gregorgregorovich
Well-known member
He needs to steer clear of bacon sandwiches and racist auld biddies. The right wing press might not have anything on him, but that won't stop them making things up.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
The right wing press have not, and will not attack Starmer with anything like the same vigour that they did Corbyn for the simple reason that he doesn't worry them.
Yeah, but you are only about fifteen years old and you clearly don't have any involvement with the party or talk to anyone who is involved in it. Either that or your ears need fixing.I don't hear many people who call Starmer a liar at all. In all fairness the only people I come across are the 3-4 board members who don't like him on here!
gregorgregorovich
Well-known member
I
I agree with you, but they will still attack him and will use smears, innuendo and downright lies against him and other leading Labour figures.
Or they could have accepted the result of the referendum and taken remain off the table.