Joshua Usyk

Once again, I take a different opinion. Fury isn't that well coordinated. Throughout his career, he's often looked cumbersome when throwing punches. I've never seen him in a fight whilst he's moving and hitting whilst landing significant shots. Perhaps you could say the 2nd Wilder fight, but that was more a case of Wilder moving back in a straight line and being very basic. Someone like Chisora is perfect for Fury. Someone who doesn't have the same dimensions as him and has slower feet. Punch output in the Klitschko fight was extremely minimal. Fury didn't really land that much but Klitschko didn't really land anything. Last night was completely different. Usyk was landing at will from the first bell and gradually busted AJ up. Fury didn't do that to Klitschko. There wasn't much landed at all.

I can't understand why people are being harsh on AJ. He got beat by a fighter who is now emerging as the pound for pound king. Hopefully some of the other heavyweights will now start to fight each other. There's plenty more opportunities for AJ.

Just to note, Joshua beats Fury. If you don't believe me, just wait and see. But he certainly doesn't want to try and define his career through Usyk. That is doomed for failure unless Usyk stays in the game long enough until he loses his legs and reflexes. But I'd very much doubt he'd do that.
 
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JustTheGent said:
Once again, I take a different opinion. Fury isn't that well coordinated. Throughout his career, he's often looked cumbersome when throwing punches. I've never seen him in a fight whilst he's moving and hitting whilst landing significant shots. Perhaps you could say the 2nd Wilder fight, but that was more a case of Wilder moving back in a straight line and being very basic. Someone like Chisora is perfect for Fury. Someone who doesn't have the same dimensions as him and has slower feet. Punch output in the Klitschko fight was extremely minimal. Fury didn't really land that much but Klitschko didn't really land anything. Last night was completely different. Usyk was landing at will from the first bell and gradually busted AJ up. Fury didn't do that to Klitschko. There wasn't much landed at all.

I can't understand why people are being harsh on AJ. He got beat by a fighter who is now emerging as the pound for pound king. Hopefully some of the other heavyweights will now start to fight each other. There's plenty more opportunities for AJ.

Just to note, Joshua beats Fury. If you don't believe me, just wait and see. But he certainly doesn't want to try and define his career through Usyk. That is doomed for failure unless Usyk stays in the game long enough until he loses his legs and reflexes. But I'd very much doubt he'd do that.
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Regards to your thoughts on AJ beating Fury. Do you think or a 17stone AJ would beat Fury?

For me his best chance of beating Fury would be to get back up to 18stone and blast him out of there.

I couldn’t see a 17stone AJ out box Fury.
 
Heam44 said:
Regards to your thoughts on AJ beating Fury. Do you think or a 17stone AJ would beat Fury?

For me his best chance of beating Fury would be to get back up to 18stone and blast him out of there.

I couldn’t see a 17stone AJ out box Fury.
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I think he's best at around his current weight. Going back up in weight significantly isn't really going to serve any purpose. It's just going to make him prone to further stamina issues, especially when he gets hit. Being too reactive to the Usyk defeat would be silly. He'll have learned a lot from last night and he's probably best finding a new trainer who can help him progress and build on the skills and experience he already has.
 
Heam44 said:
Regards to your thoughts on AJ beating Fury. Do you think or a 17stone AJ would beat Fury?

For me his best chance of beating Fury would be to get back up to 18stone and blast him out of there.

I couldn’t see a 17stone AJ out box Fury.
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Agreed. AJ is NOT a boxer, Fury is.
As someone above just said. If it's Fury or Usyk I agree he should just bulk up and go for power.
I think Fury will wait for the rematch and go for the winner.
Unless he dodges Usjk coz he thinks he'll do him and goes for the payday with Joshua.
They'd fill Wembley tomorrow.
 
JustTheGent said:
Once again, I take a different opinion. Fury isn't that well coordinated.
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Really? he’s the most coordinated heavyweight, only Usyk comes close. 🤣

The way his shifts his weight between front foot and back foot while able to throw is masterful. He can be in range or out of range in one spring step.

His double feint and two-step he used against wilder while spearing the jab at the same time is something no heavyweight today has the coordination to do. He might not look as easy on the eye as some smaller fighters because of his size, But if you think he has no coordination then you really don’t understand boxing from a technical point of view.
 
Regarding Joshua's weight, he should fight at the weight he feels comfortable with but you can gas out being heavy ,so a game plan of blasting someone out goes against you in the later rounds if the opponent is still there( George foreman Ali), Can't agree he'd beat fury he's too slick and can vary his style mid round never mind round by round. The wilder fight would be fifty/ fifty mainly because of that punch.
Incidentally did anyone make a few quid backing Usyk, In round eight I could have got 5/1 on Usyk winning the fight on Paddy power from rounds 9-12 but thought maybe AJ would get a right hand off, ( I was listening to radio 5 not watching) so thought I'd save a tenner.
 
AJ approached the fight all wrong, came in fairly light, as light as he did against Ruiz 2, and tried to outbox Usyk, but he is never going to do that, his footwork is never going to match Usyk.

All night he failed to really get to grip with his footwork and head movement. The positives are that his tactics were wrong, and Usy fought the most perfect fight of his life, and AJ possibly the worst of his. So I would expect him to do better in a rematch, but he's got a lot rework to do, he should be getting the smaller man worried about his power, not the other way around, he should be going to war with Usyk, getting in his face, ragdolling him about. It was all too nice from AJ, too noble art and not enough dark art. He needs to take a serious look at his trainers too, if they came up with this plan to outbox Usyk, it was a terrible plan.
 
Boromart - would have to strongly disagree with that. To suggest Joshua was at his worst and Usyk was at his best is totally ludicrous. To come to that conclusion I suspect you're not aware of the history of both fighters and haven't really seen either fight before.

Personally, I don't generally buy this 'big man' and 'small man' thing, especially in championship fights. Usyk was just as strong as Joshua in there and that was evident throughout the fight. Usyk has fought and sparred thousands of rounds with much bigger men. That's why he and his team just smile and laugh when those sort of questions get asked.

Boxing is not a weightlifting competition and although sometimes opponents can be bullied, Usyk isn't that type of fighter. He's way, way too good for that. His mental strength is at the highest level and his physical strength, durability and stamina are again at the highest level. His strongest rounds in championship fights are generally the final 4. Any fighter that tries to bully him will get outpointed or busted up. To think bigger men with much slower feet can just jump on him and tie him up is once again ludicrous. They are going to get hit when they move in and then Usyk will be gone.
 
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JustTheGent said:
Boromart - would have to strongly disagree with that. To suggest Joshua was at his worst and Usyk was at his best is totally ludicrous. To come to that conclusion I suspect you're not aware of the history of both fighters and haven't really seen either fight before.
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I said Joshua fought one of his worst fights, ie tactically he (and'or his team) got it utterly wrong. That isn't ludicrous.

I stand by what I said about Usyk, this isn't cruiserweight, this is the big time, the big boys. His performance was light years ahead of his previous two fights at this weight, therefore it's his best ever performance, because it was at the very top, against a two time champ. He was pretty much punch perfect for 12 rounds, I don't think anyone could be technically better than that performance.

I've seen both fighters before, lots by the way.

JustTheGent said:
Usyk isn't that type of fighter. He's way, way too good for that. His mental strength is at the highest level and his physical strength, durability and stamina are again at the highest level
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Mental strength is hard to tell with him, until he gets into some dark places in fights, places his skills have kept him out of. He certainly has superb self control and discipline and concentration.

Physical strength, he's strong but he doesn't have one punch ko power. He hit AJ with his hardest punch right at the start of the fight, right on the button, AJ certainly reacted but was never going down from it. If a man who some call 'chiny' doesn't go down from his biggest punch, then he isn't a big hitter. If that was Wilder, Klitschko, Whyte or another big puncher he would have been out.

Durability, he probably has this, it'll be interesting to see what happens when a HW lands clean on him. That will test that.

Stamina, one of the best in the world stamina wise. His footwork and head movement were imperious. They always have been, the question was, when he puts weight on, will he still have the stamina.....he answered that.
 
Heam44 said:
What are people thoughts on what Joshua should do for the rematch / rest of his career?

For me I think he should go back to being an 18stone+ beast. I think he should stick to his strengths which are size and power.
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That's fine if he's fighting a bum and looking to wrap it up within 6 rounds, he can't go beyond that at a high level and having to work hard.

He still had the power against Usyk but he just didn't have the ability to get himself set and launch against a brilliant technical opponent who stopped him from unleashing.
 
I just think his corner got it all wrong - at the end of round ten when he clearly needed a ko, his corner were telling him to stick behind the jab.

Chisora although was stopped probably put as much of a dent in usyk as Joshua did.

I think Dyllain Whyte would probably deal with usyk.

im not sure where Joshua goes if he loses the rematch.
 
I'm surprised at the number of people (including ex-pro's) who think Joshua should have just tried to walk through Usyk.

I know we all want to see a champion going out on his shield, going down while swinging, but its easy to say when you're sat at home and a lot harder when you are getting countered all night long. Usyk doesn't punch as hard as Wilder where he puts your lights out with one shot but an accurate 16stone southpaw hits hard enough to get your respect.
 
FatCat said:
I just think his corner got it all wrong - at the end of round ten when he clearly needed a ko, his corner were telling him to stick behind the jab.

Chisora although was stopped probably put as much of a dent in usyk as Joshua did.

I think Dyllain Whyte would probably deal with usyk.

im not sure where Joshua goes if he loses the rematch.
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No disrespect fatcat, but Whyte is a poor man's Joshua from what I've seen. But Whyte has said himself you can't box Usyk you make it a dogfight if that's what you mean.🥊
 
There is some thought amongst ex pro's that Usyk eased up quite a bit against Chisora about halfway through the fight. I wonder if he wasn't wanting to give too much away with his eyes on the bigger prizes vs Joshua etc? He was certainly comfortable anyway.

I'm not sure Joshua did loads wrong, it's really easy to say he should have come out swinging but Usyk's left hand was coming from no where. He would have been picked apart and he was so shattered and hurt last few rounds that I don't think wind milling was even an option. Peter Fury's analysis was highlighted a few posts ago and it is a good shout to watch that on you tube.
 
BoroMart said:
I said Joshua fought one of his worst fights, ie tactically he (and'or his team) got it utterly wrong. That isn't ludicrous.

I stand by what I said about Usyk, this isn't cruiserweight, this is the big time, the big boys. His performance was light years ahead of his previous two fights at this weight, therefore it's his best ever performance, because it was at the very top, against a two time champ. He was pretty much punch perfect for 12 rounds, I don't think anyone could be technically better than that performance.

I've seen both fighters before, lots by the way.


Mental strength is hard to tell with him, until he gets into some dark places in fights, places his skills have kept him out of. He certainly has superb self control and discipline and concentration.

Physical strength, he's strong but he doesn't have one punch ko power. He hit AJ with his hardest punch right at the start of the fight, right on the button, AJ certainly reacted but was never going down from it. If a man who some call 'chiny' doesn't go down from his biggest punch, then he isn't a big hitter. If that was Wilder, Klitschko, Whyte or another big puncher he would have been out.

Durability, he probably has this, it'll be interesting to see what happens when a HW lands clean on him. That will test that.

Stamina, one of the best in the world stamina wise. His footwork and head movement were imperious. They always have been, the question was, when he puts weight on, will he still have the stamina.....he answered that.
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It might be the case that Joshua fought one of his best fights. You're merely speculating that it is one of his worst fights because he was well beaten. I'd suggest the reason he was well beaten is because he was up against a likely all time great. Not because he underperformed or his tactics were drastically wrong. Different tactics might result in a much worse outcome for Joshua. It's plain to see that if Joshua had gone hunting Usyk down, Joshua would have likely been stopped. It's much harder to land clean shots with full power. There's also more of a tell on them and they empty the tank much quicker. I don't think emptying the tank hoping to land a big shot on Usyk would be a good tactic. He's alert throughout the fight but what are the chances of landing the big shot he doesn't see, early in the fight? Probably close to zero.

As far as this as being Usyk's best performance. Well, obviously if you're only including his Heavyweight fights, he's only had two previous bouts, that were deemed stepping stones. Considering that was only his 3rd fight at Heavyweight, you'd imagine there's much more improvement to come. Was that the best he is capable of? Almost certainly no. How much more improvement is there to come from Joshua? Perhaps some, but the notion that Usyk was at his best and Joshua was at his worst doesn't stand up at all.

Physical strength is not punch power. Wilder is said to be the biggest single puncher but he's not necessarily that physically strong. In terms of strength, Usyk is much stronger than his actual weight. Look at him against Joshua, he actually pushes him back with his forearm at one stage and holds his own in every clinch. It was the same against Chisora, he was actually pushing Chisora back.

With regards to actual punch power, it can mean different things. You can have one punch power, combination punch power, accumulative punch power and consistent accuracy also comes into the equation. In terms of Usyk, he hits hard and extremely accurate. Don't get confused and think to have power you need to consistently send opponents to the canvas off one punch. Take Joe Joyce for example, he has some of the heaviest hands in the business but doesn't really knock his opponents clean out. I'd say Joshua's chin is about average. He's took good shots from Dillian Whyte, Povetkin and Klitschko. Obviously he had to climb off the canvas from one of the Klitschko shots but Tyson Fury had to get up from a Stevie Cunningham overhand right.

Just one more thing to note. Chisora is said to be very durable and he fought 23 rounds with Dillian Whyte. Usyk had him in serious trouble off a single shot in round 7 in their bout, but Usyk seemed to step off the gas and let him recover. It is now been said that Usyk didn't want to reveal what he had because it would scare opponents off. This makes total sense. Matchroom were never that keen on the fight and if Usyk had stopped Chisora, there must be a good chance that he wouldn't have got the Joshua fight.
 
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