Johnson To Take Direct Control

Alvez_48 said:
I do wonder what would Starmer have done differently? Let's take a trip to imagination land and pretend not JC but Starmer was standing in December and had took a small majority.
Would he have locked down earlier having just won an election and risk being called a dictator? Would he have locked down care homes and attempted to keep staff in the care homes for weeks in an effort to stave off the care home impact?
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Being judged on your record is surely part of the deal you accept when you form a government, isn't it? A government can't turn round and say "well you wouldn't have done any better....".

Who knows what Starmer would have done differently; since he wasn't leader at the start of the crisis, there isn't much point speculating. I do not accept that there is nothing Starmer could have done differently to improve the situation; 179 nations with covid deaths have lower death/capita rate than the UK. Only 3 have higher; these include San Marino and Andorra whose small population makes their results statistically dubious. I do not believe that no one could have done a better job than Boris, because almost everyone else did.

I accept that Boris may have done his best; doing your best may be ok for a boy scout, but not for a prime minister. If his best isn't good enough, he should resign.
 
Frozen Horse said:
Being judged on your record is surely part of the deal you accept when you form a government, isn't it? A government can't turn round and say "well you wouldn't have done any better....".

Who knows what Starmer would have done differently; since he wasn't leader at the start of the crisis, there isn't much point speculating. I do not accept that there is nothing Starmer could have done differently to improve the situation; 179 nations with covid deaths have lower death/capita rate than the UK. Only 3 have higher; these include San Marino and Andorra whose small population makes their results statistically dubious. I do not believe that no one could have done a better job than Boris, because almost everyone else did.

I accept that Boris may have done his best; doing your best may be ok for a boy scout, but not for a prime minister. If his best isn't good enough, he should resign.
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Good to see you read my post as a defence of Boris when it's not.
One thing on death count we have seriously got the most 'generous' ways of counting covid deaths in the world for sure.

You'd have to approach the topic from a critical and nuanced perspective though to realise. 😉
 
Alvez_48 said:
Good to see you read my post as a defence of Boris when it's not.
One thing on death count we have seriously got the most 'generous' ways of counting covid deaths in the world for sure.

You'd have to approach the topic from a critical and nuanced perspective though to realise. 😉
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I didn't.
 
Alvez_48 said:
Good to see you read my post as a defence of Boris when it's not.
One thing on death count we have seriously got the most 'generous' ways of counting covid deaths in the world for sure.

You'd have to approach the topic from a critical and nuanced perspective though to realise. 😉
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I see it quoted a lot that all deaths are being attributed to COVID, and we are over reporting. In my understanding of our figures we have a massive amount of excess deaths not attributed to COVID- which went up or fell alongside our COVID figures.

I appreciate correlation isn't causation, but if COVID deaths are dropping, and excess deaths, would that not suggest we are massively under reporting COVID and perhaps not generous enough?
 
I really do wonder what the mood of nation is towards Johnson and the government at this time? Cummings is stealing all Trumps tricks in trying to get the PM and Tory party to denigrate Starmer for not valuing the efforts of the great British people in responding so positively to the crisis. The reality is Starmer questioned the government response not the people’s but Cummings new stock phrase is now going to be that people who don’t extenuate the positives of the crisis are the enemy to recovery and not part of the one nation response. This will build steam in the coming days. You just have to hope and pray the British public see through this and listen to the debate and questions being asked and lack of answers being given rather than the headlines in the Sun, Mail, Express etc. Recent history says they will once again believe ‘the Blonde Bluster Boy’ rather than their own eyes and ears which is deeply depressing.
 
Cambsred said:
I see it quoted a lot that all deaths are being attributed to COVID, and we are over reporting. In my understanding of our figures we have a massive amount of excess deaths not attributed to COVID- which went up or fell alongside our COVID figures.

I appreciate correlation isn't causation, but if COVID deaths are dropping, and excess deaths, would that not suggest we are massively under reporting COVID and perhaps not generous enough?
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We can't say for sure but turn off all other health provision, make people afraid to go to hospital and sadly care home lockdowns' seem to be the result.
 
Alvez_48 said:
We can't say for sure but turn off all other health provision, make people afraid to go to hospital and sadly care home lockdowns' seem to be the result.
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And yet, these things are still in place and the excess deaths and virus deaths have dropped significantly. I would expect, and indeed do expect excess deaths to rise as a consequence of this, but in the short term I wouldnt have expected a rise and then decline, if anything a more consistent rise.

I think the care home situation is a very different discussion, with no lock down in Sweden arguably, the same problems have occurred to my understanding.
 
No sure ‘dropped significantly’ stands up to scrutiny especially relative to other countries decline.
The lockdown relaxation was all about trying to ensure a 2nd peak does not arise.

I have seen the pandemic planning for the funeral industry. Their best case is we do have a rise which matches the first peak.
Comes with lots of caveats mind.
 
1finny said:
No sure ‘dropped significantly’ stands up to scrutiny especially relative to other countries decline.
The lockdown relaxation was all about trying to ensure a 2nd peak does not arise.

I have seen the pandemic planning for the funeral industry. Their best case is we do have a rise which matches the first peak.
Comes with lots of caveats mind.
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That's fair. Declined alongside each other.
 
1finny said:
No sure ‘dropped significantly’ stands up to scrutiny especially relative to other countries decline.
The lockdown relaxation was all about trying to ensure a 2nd peak does not arise.

I have seen the pandemic planning for the funeral industry. Their best case is we do have a rise which matches the first peak.
Comes with lots of caveats mind.
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Did they have planning for the VE day weekend?
 
The planning stats come out reasonably frequently based on ‘the science’.
They then caveat that by having a margin for error dependant on compliance to the science.
The last one came out as a result of the new relaxation of lockdown
 
1finny said:
No sure ‘dropped significantly’ stands up to scrutiny especially relative to other countries decline.
The lockdown relaxation was all about trying to ensure a 2nd peak does not arise.

I have seen the pandemic planning for the funeral industry. Their best case is we do have a rise which matches the first peak.
Comes with lots of caveats mind.
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Infact while case numbers continue to decline significantly excess deaths in care homes continue specifically in dementia...

Truth is we will never know for sure but unless there is something that makes British genetics (whatever they are?!) More susceptible then the numbers don't add up.

Germany relaxed lockdown for weeks despite prevalence of the virus... Much lower number.. they must be much better than us.. oh wait they count the deaths only of people who have been autopsied and confirmed to have died OF coronavirus.

The whole thing is clear as mud.
 
Alvez_48 said:
Infact while case numbers continue to decline significantly excess deaths in care homes continue specifically in dementia...

Truth is we will never know for sure but unless there is something that makes British genetics (whatever they are?!) More susceptible then the numbers don't add up.

Germany relaxed lockdown for weeks despite prevalence of the virus... Much lower number.. they must be much better than us.. oh wait they count the deaths only of people who have been autopsied and confirmed to have died OF coronavirus.

The whole thing is clear as mud.
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Yes, the numbers are difficult to reconcile for all sorts of reasons. Couple that with other things that get thrown into the pot - population density, age, poverty, genetics etc etc and, as has been said, comparisons are hard.
The governments preferred measure is excess deaths v the 5 year average. I get the logic because all those factors then get levelled out.
The FT runs a weekly tally of that v other countries using the same metric. The caveat is timing as not all countries report the same period at the same time.
 
1finny said:
Yes, the numbers are difficult to reconcile for all sorts of reasons. Couple that with other things that get thrown into the pot - population density, age, poverty, genetics etc etc and, as has been said, comparisons are hard.
The governments preferred measure is excess deaths v the 5 year average. I get the logic because all those factors then get levelled out.
The FT runs a weekly tally of that v other countries using the same metric. The caveat is timing as not all countries report the same period at the same time.
Click to expand...

I think one huge mistake is turning other NHS functions off at the start.. I get it though.. you've totally underfunded it for 15 years course you're going to **** yourself.

The problem is it's harder to turn it back on then it is to turn it off.
 
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