Ivan Toney

It's basically insider trading which is why it is banned. A League 1 player might not seem to be connected to a PL team or vice versa but if those tasks contain players that were in academies together etc then they know each other. If one of them says to the other something private like "our best player has an injury so he's going to miss tomorrow's game" then the other person has an edge on the bookies.

That thing must happen with players and their friends/family as well but the FA can't stop those people gambling.

The FA ultimately just want to protect their reputation and want to avoid players having gambling problems and match fixing.
 
Andy_W said:
but not being able to bet on others seems a bit daft, as long as they're not in some kind of syndicate with others etc. Although I suppose it's done to discourage that.
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No it’s not

as betting often leads corruption, and football is a very small village so most players know one at other clubs ex team mates etc just look at what happens in the touch line when subs pass each other.

Just look at the scandals in Italy and across Europe.
 
Football is a small world, as has been said it is very easy for players at one club to be mates with others at another club or know friends of friends. A bit of idle gossip about a striker or goalkeeper injury that isn't in the press could affect the betting odds. Marginal, but there will be instances like this so it's very easy to see why they block it all. Particularly as agents represent multiple players at all sorts of levels and that brings players from different levels into contact with one another.

As above, it is in effect insider trading and as @Jedi boro said, gambling has a seedy reputation and is not something the FA want plastered all over the papers with their players implicated. It looks bad as the obvious next link from players betting on games is the suggestion of throwing games and general corruption, it just affects the reputation of the game.

Having said that, if you're mates with a footballer but not 'in the game' you could benefit from insider knowledge with no restrictions, particularly the new manager market where no doubt who is speaking to who will be an open secret in that world. I bet some people are making an absolute killing if they have the right connections.
 
Nano said:
It's basically insider trading which is why it is banned. A League 1 player might not seem to be connected to a PL team or vice versa but if those tasks contain players that were in academies together etc then they know each other. If one of them says to the other something private like "our best player has an injury so he's going to miss tomorrow's game" then the other person has an edge on the bookies.

That thing must happen with players and their friends/family as well but the FA can't stop those people gambling.

The FA ultimately just want to protect their reputation and want to avoid players having gambling problems and match fixing.
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Seems a bit daft to me, anyone with anything to do with football (even supporters) could be held under this banner. There's always somebody who knows more than somebody else, and the giving of information should surely be more of a problem than the gambling? What info is ok to give out, and what isn't? is there a ban on who the players can talk do, or are there levels of information which they can give to their wife, mum, mate, son and some match-fixing crook?

Just seems odd, to suggest and assume that all players are bad/ colluding, there's a massive trust problem there, for the people who effectively are funding the FA. Yet nobody outside of football is doing anything wrong, as well as the bookies, which is where all the markets are made.

I get that the FA could maybe ban players from doing it, and prevent player registrations, but it's 100% hypocritical when there's gambling ads on almost every shirt, on banners at every ground, on every sports channel, during every event, at every opportunity.

Totally get the bit about wanting to stop match-fixing, but how much of a problem is this in UK football, compared to actually having the gambling industry?

If they want to be seen as distancing themselves from gambling, and if they actually cared, then they should ban all the sponsors and ads. It just looks like a fake attempt at being seen to be doing something. Maybe do something meaningful, like pushing for regulation which can limit bookies profits (or peoples spending) or a public company (not for profit) where they act more like the betfair exchange etc. Although, saying that, Betfairs rife with insider trading, and has had big problems with people court siding with laptops at the tennis etc. Never mind the people betting on random "live" TV, thinking it's actually "live", when it's really got a 20-120 second delay (and 90% don't even realise it).
 
theredrooster said:
Football is a small world, as has been said it is very easy for players at one club to be mates with others at another club or know friends of friends. A bit of idle gossip about a striker or goalkeeper injury that isn't in the press could affect the betting odds. Marginal, but there will be instances like this so it's very easy to see why they block it all. Particularly as agents represent multiple players at all sorts of levels and that brings players from different levels into contact with one another.

As above, it is in effect insider trading and as @Jedi boro said, gambling has a seedy reputation and is not something the FA want plastered all over the papers with their players implicated. It looks bad as the obvious next link from players betting on games is the suggestion of throwing games and general corruption, it just affects the reputation of the game.

Having said that, if you're mates with a footballer but not 'in the game' you could benefit from insider knowledge with no restrictions, particularly the new manager market where no doubt who is speaking to who will be an open secret in that world. I bet some people are making an absolute killing if they have the right connections.
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Yeah, I totally get it, it just seems totally hypocritical (covered in the post above). They ban footballers betting (99% doing it for fun, not dodgy reasons I expect), and take the moral high ground, but then fan the flames by having a billion ads all over the place, at every opportunity. Turning a blind eye that practically every single market out there is crooked or stacked against 90% of people making bets, or that 90% of gamblers are losing money, and a massive percentage losing way more than they can afford.

Sure, a footballer might have more of an edge than most, but I bet it's not enough to overcome variance, the bookies margin, and other peoples knowledge which is worth more than their tip off? The person giving the tip off is more in the wrong, especially if they know what the intention is. Also, like said above, any of them could get any other to carry out the bet, which is an even more sinister route.

Just all seems a bit odd, that they know the system is crooked as hell, which they acknowledge in one way, yet act in other ways like it's the complete opposite.
 
Andy_W said:
Betfairs rife with insider trading, and has had big problems with people court siding with laptops at the tennis etc. Never mind the people betting on random "live" TV, thinking it's actually "live", when it's really got a 20-120 second delay (and 90% don't even realise it).
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I saw a guy get pulled for this once.

Big tennis tournament but a small court and minor match with only a few spectators, and was really odd, 15 cops descended on this random guy, pulled him out and questioned him for ages, was obviously something serious happening.

Came out in the press that he had loads of phones and some kind of clicker signallers, which he was relaying to an overseas gambling syndicate. They were betting unusually big on next point, double faults etc and because the TV broadcast isn’t quite live, this guy was giving them the live info before it ‘happened’. Very illegal.
 
Alex-The-Kid said:
What constitutes a breach? Is that betting on himself and/or Brentford?
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What are the rules on betting in football?​

Betting on football is banned worldwide for all players, managers, coaches, club staff, directors and licensed agents involved in the game within the Premier League, EFL, National League, Women's Super League, Women's Championship and the Northern, Southern and Isthmian leagues.

Participants covered by the ban are prohibited from betting, either directly or indirectly, on any football match or competition that takes place anywhere in the world.

The ban also includes betting on any other football-related matter such as the transfer of players, managerial appointments or team selection.

The passing of inside information to somebody that uses the information for betting is also not allowed. Inside information is information that you are aware of due to your position in the game and which is not publicly available, like injury or team selection news.

You are not allowed to use inside information to place a bet or to instruct someone else to do so on your behalf. Equally, you are not allowed to pass inside information on to someone else which they use for betting.
 
Andy_W said:
Yeah, I totally get it, it just seems totally hypocritical (covered in the post above). They ban footballers betting (99% doing it for fun, not dodgy reasons I expect), and take the moral high ground, but then fan the flames by having a billion ads all over the place, at every opportunity. Turning a blind eye that practically every single market out there is crooked or stacked against 90% of people making bets, or that 90% of gamblers are losing money, and a massive percentage losing way more than they can afford.

Sure, a footballer might have more of an edge than most, but I bet it's not enough to overcome variance, the bookies margin, and other peoples knowledge which is worth more than their tip off? The person giving the tip off is more in the wrong, especially if they know what the intention is. Also, like said above, any of them could get any other to carry out the bet, which is an even more sinister route.

Just all seems a bit odd, that they know the system is crooked as hell, which they acknowledge in one way, yet act in other ways like it's the complete opposite.
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Google calciopoli
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
If gambling has such a seedy reputation, then why is it so prevalent in everything to do with football in this country.
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I agree totally it’s a joke how close they are.
 
jonny_greenings_sock said:
I saw a guy get pulled for this once.

Big tennis tournament but a small court and minor match with only a few spectators, and was really odd, 15 cops descended on this random guy, pulled him out and questioned him for ages, was obviously something serious happening.

Came out in the press that he had loads of phones and some kind of clicker signallers, which he was relaying to an overseas gambling syndicate. They were betting unusually big on next point, double faults etc and because the TV broadcast isn’t quite live, this guy was giving them the live info before it ‘happened’. Very illegal.
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Used to happen quite a lot, Tennis and cricket were massive markets, as there were often lots of swings, and opportunities, over a long timeframe and one event wouldn't typically destroy half the bets, like it does with football. I saw one WTA game and everyone in the crowd (about 10 of them) had a lap top, think they banned courtsiding not long after that, probably going back about 15 years now mind. The only people watching the random WTA games were gamblers!

They used to just sit with a massive bet waiting, but not activated and the second the serve was broken they pressed button and hoovered up all the opposite bets (largely people watching on TV) and then laid it off at the next opportunity.

Betfair built delays into the bets to try and stop/ cover for this not long after, but then meant everyone was betting with even more delay.

The tennis used to be a good thing to trade on, made quite a bit of money doing that, and the betfair forums were super busy. I tried to only bet between games during the pauses, as otherwise you're going to get dominated by the courtisders/ syndicates. It's easy to get burnt mind, and I had a couple of big scares so quit that game.
 
Jedi boro said:
Google calciopoli
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It's crazy isn't it, the punishments were too light too. I remember that going on, but we didn't get all the details over here. Everyone knew Italian football was crooked mind.

If they're allowing gambling to have such an influence in the sport, with ads and sponsors etc, then they may as well just allow everyone to bet. But they still have to be much stricter on those carrying out matchfixing etc.

The insider knowledge thing is a lesser point, as there are that many involved in football, that it is impossible to police. People may be making big bets on their insider knowledge, but not realising someone else has even more critical insider knowledge.

Would be interesting to see if Toney's was a losing account, I bet it was, as are/ were most footballers' accounts I expect.

The only people winning are the bookies and the match-fixers who get away with it.
 
I can't believe some people think footballers should be allowed to bet on football matches. If it was allowed, match fixing would surely follow. Maybe not by manipulating the overall result, but things like corners and throw in, etc.

I agree it's unlikely to happen in the Premier League where players earn an absolute fortune, but it would be a temptation in the lower leagues and you only need a few players to succumb to that temptation for the integrity of the league to be in tatters.

By way of example, take a couple of late-20's footballers who have fallen down the pyramid. They started off living the high life as Premier League academy graduates, before moving to the Championship, then down to League 1. They used to earn £10k a week but now they're on £2k a week and fearful of what will happen at the end of their contracts. So they collude and start placing bets on each others matches, on markets they can influence such as bookings and corners. Gradually, to get more money down, they get their mates to open accounts and place the bets. Then they involve former teammates at other clubs and the conceit escalates, before you end up with full blown match fixing. And all of this ignores the potential for malevolent influences to play a part, i.e. dodgy betting syndicates approaching players, especially those that have got themselves into gambling related debts.

Is the above scenario far-fetched? Probably, but then every potential scandal is far-fetched until it happens. Anyway the point is, a total ban on football betting should prevent 99.99% of players even considering getting involved in such shenanigans whereas if footballers were allowed to bet on games they are not involved in, it would inevitably end up in a betting related scandal and very probably match fixing at some point.
 
Andy_W said:
Used to happen quite a lot, Tennis and cricket were massive markets, as there were often lots of swings, and opportunities, over a long timeframe and one event wouldn't typically destroy half the bets, like it does with football. I saw one WTA game and everyone in the crowd (about 10 of them) had a lap top, think they banned courtsiding not long after that, probably going back about 15 years now mind. The only people watching the random WTA games were gamblers!

They used to just sit with a massive bet waiting, but not activated and the second the serve was broken they pressed button and hoovered up all the opposite bets (largely people watching on TV) and then laid it off at the next opportunity.

Betfair built delays into the bets to try and stop/ cover for this not long after, but then meant everyone was betting with even more delay.

The tennis used to be a good thing to trade on, made quite a bit of money doing that, and the betfair forums were super busy. I tried to only bet between games during the pauses, as otherwise you're going to get dominated by the courtisders/ syndicates. It's easy to get burnt mind, and I had a couple of big scares so quit that game.
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Wow, that’s mad.

Doesn’t seem right that you can place a bet on things as specific as a no ball on the 4th ball of the over, or a single point in tennis. So tempting for players to collude in something so minor that doesn’t affect the overall game, and for betting syndicates to put the heavy word / pressure on them.
 
Questions marks being raised about his red card vs Luton and then the betting stopped 2 days after that

He got a 2nd yellow towards the end of the game for booting the ball away
 
Problem with someone like Toney as well is he came through the lower leagues so he will know people at all clubs at all levels of the pyramid.
 
I presume that even though it is banned there is still a big culture of it happening. Mostly harmless, just betting while watching matches like any of us might but because Toney had gone from PL to L1 maybe he thought his top-level career might be over so there wasn't a risk of being caught. I'm guessing there is some sort of more rigorous investigations when players are in line for an England call-up and that exposure is what has prompted the investigation.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is way more widespread (and 99% harmless) than has been uncovered. 232 bets over 5 years is hardly like he's a prolific gambler. That's about 1 a week. Maybe he just puts a £1 on an accumulator.

If anyone has played Fantasy Football and has seen things like the footballers own teams then it is easy to see how this information gets out because there are people tracking their teams and quite reliably you can see which players might have picked up an injury or have been rotated for a fixture when you see that their teammates have dropped them from their teams or benched/not captained them etc. If it's enough to give you an edge in a free to play game then it's definitely enough to give you an edge in the betting markets.
 
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