Irish now suspend Astra Zeneca vaccine

The European medicines agency, although investigating says it's safe and to continue using it.

I'm confused, based on some posts on this thread, I thought the evil galactic empire, sorry I mean the EU, were behind suspending it for petty political reasons? But it seems the EU position is not to suspend it?

which means those EU countries doing that are making their own choice. Almost as if they're sovereign nations capable of making their own decisions. But that surely can't be right either because we had to leave to get our sovereignty back. But these countries seem to have that and are members. Very confusing.
 
When a medication is being used on an emergency license and you get cases of unusual activity (clots in younger adults specifically) you are naturally going to explore this further. It is good practice. Norway dont care about the UK data, they care about their citizens.

Once one country sees a pattern many countries are likely to be cautious and suspend activity while they scrutinise their own data before proceeding.

We haven't had many yellow card events that are out of the ordinary with either Az or Pfizer so haven't had to stop/ investigate anything.

Its good rigour. I'm not sure why we are so defensive about it. Our data shows low risk- so we can carry on. When they review the cases/ data they will make a decision.
 
SmallTown said:
I don’t think you’ve got your timelines correct. Norway were one of the first countries to ban it. So I doubt they were spooked by something that didn’t happen, in countries in an organisation to which they don’t belong
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I know the timeline. You are getting confused. If you read my reply objectively, I'm not blaming the EU. However, a number of EU countries have suspended the use of the Ox/Az in fairly quick succession. This could well have spooked non EU countries in to stopping also. (I was answering your question about why non EU countries were stopping).

I am also well aware that a number of EU countries are continuing, so I agree with you that it's not an EU directive.
 
Cuthbert said:
I know the timeline. You are getting confused. If you read my reply objectively, I'm not blaming the EU. However, a number of EU countries have suspended the use of the Ox/Az in fairly quick succession. This could well have spooked non EU countries in to stopping also. (I was answering your question about why non EU countries were stopping).

I am also well aware that a number of EU countries are continuing, so I agree with you that it's not an EU directive.
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Again, Norway (along with Denmark) were the first country to stop using it. So they cantbhave been spooked by EU countries. They can have been spooked by Scandinavian/Norwich countries I guess. But fair enough.

Glad you agree it can't be an EU thing. Given the EMA have said it's OK and more EU countries are using it than aren't.
 
Reading a bit more on it this morning, the likes of Macron & Merkel have panicked imo.

They poured cold water over it's effectiveness a few weeks back so if they were to say 'don't worry it's safe and crack on' and even one person dies from the side effects, the political fall out for them will be catastrophic.

And reading even more about what experts in the field are saying, the risk v risk scenario, it's quite breathtaking that theses countries are suspending the use when you see the overall benefits of having the population vaccinated.

It's quite ironic, the vaccination rollout will save Boris & Co but probably spell the end for Merkel. Macron et al............ my big worry is it let's in the far right in Europe.

Anyway, that's my thesis and I'm sticking to it..............now where's my vaccine so I can go to the pub !!
 
Tommy_Dickfingers said:
Reading a bit more on it this morning, the likes of Macron & Merkel have panicked imo.

They poured cold water over it's effectiveness a few weeks back so if they were to say 'don't worry it's safe and crack on' and even one person dies from the side effects, the political fall out for them will be catastrophic.

And reading even more about what experts in the field are saying, the risk v risk scenario, it's quite breathtaking that theses countries are suspending the use when you see the overall benefits of having the population vaccinated.

It's quite ironic, the vaccination rollout will save Boris & Co but probably spell the end for Merkel. Macron et al............ my big worry is it let's in the far right in Europe.

Anyway, that's my thesis and I'm sticking to it..............now where's my vaccine so I can go to the pub !!
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I think panicked or being cautious. You're exactly right that if there is a problem and they don't identify it there may be massive backlash against them. If they don't stop it and it turns out there is more to their data I suspect the consequences would be even worse.
 
HundredRoom said:
Every time I bring up counter points of view I get a big Whataboutery bashing but thanks - looks like Laura has done a bit of real journalism for a change
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In direct response, I'm not convinced by the bland statistical figures being presented. They are yearly statistics but the probability of those happening within a five day period of a year will be different. Also, over the next year will any of the other 14 million get clearly unrelated blood clots and we don't know how many non-related thrombotic events have taken place in this time period. i.e. it may be coincidental or it may be an additive event. You can't use annual statistics to support an event that happened last week. As an aside, what age group gets these blood clots compared with the Norwegian experience? Spiegelhalter said it was older age groups and the Norwegian events weren't. I'm usually impressed with Spiegelhalter but he said there was, statistically, no evidence the vaccine causes these thrombotic events. You would usually look for a null hypothesis to prove the opposite to show statistical improbability. i.e. you go out of your way to prove the opposite of the hypothesis you hold.

As an individual I'd be happy to have the jab (as I have) and I believe it's right for the greater good, but I can understand why medical people want to establish the vaccine is not causing these events by more than a statistical analysis, particularly as this vaccine could become our annual protection. Every ADR "yellow card" event should be analysed on its own merits. This is no small matter as there have been approximately 50,000 "yellow cards" with 11,000,000 AZN vaccinations - we have invested in an AI system to specifically analyse the data.

It's a big decision to pause vaccinations though, but when there are alternatives and generally lower death rates than ours, you can see why some countries may be cautious, particularly when the AZ vaccine deliveries are continuing below their contractual numbers.
 
bear66 said:
In direct response, I'm not convinced by the bland statistical figures being presented. They are yearly statistics but the probability of those happening within a five day period of a year will be different. Also, over the next year will any of the other 14 million get clearly unrelated blood clots and we don't know how many non-related thrombotic events have taken place in this time period. i.e. it may be coincidental or it may be an additive event. You can't use annual statistics to support an event that happened last week. As an aside, what age group gets these blood clots compared with the Norwegian experience? Spiegelhalter said it was older age groups and the Norwegian events weren't. I'm usually impressed with Spiegelhalter but he said there was, statistically, no evidence the vaccine causes these thrombotic events. You would usually look for a null hypothesis to prove the opposite to show statistical improbability. i.e. you go out of your way to prove the opposite of the hypothesis you hold.

As an individual I'd be happy to have the jab (as I have) and I believe it's right for the greater good, but I can understand why medical people want to establish the vaccine is not causing these events by more than a statistical analysis, particularly as this vaccine could become our annual protection. Every ADR "yellow card" event should be analysed on its own merits. This is no small matter as there have been approximately 50,000 "yellow cards" with 11,000,000 AZN vaccinations - we have invested in an AI system to specifically analyse the data.

It's a big decision to pause vaccinations though, but when there are alternatives and generally lower death rates than ours, you can see why some countries may be cautious, particularly when the AZ vaccine deliveries are continuing below their contractual numbers.
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Just to support your last point, it is reported today the volume of AZ vaccinations available to countries outside UK is low. The pause is low risk to their vaccine roll out.
 
Yearbyred said:
Well I’m off to get my jab tomorrow and almost certain it will be the Astra Zeneca one.

If you don’t see me posting, you’ll know why....
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I had it. First day man flu.. then the next day felt like I was recovering from a weekend sesh.
 
SmallTown said:
Again, Norway (along with Denmark) were the first country to stop using it. So they cantbhave been spooked by EU countries. They can have been spooked by Scandinavian/Norwich countries I guess. But fair enough.

Glad you agree it can't be an EU thing. Given the EMA have said it's OK and more EU countries are using it than aren't.
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There's no doubt where the source of this is from. However, without apportioning blame or indeed siding with anyone, the main EU countries (or by that I mean the larger countries) definitely support each other in decision making and once one big hitter presses the button, the other quickly follow and not always because they necessary want to, but it's a show of unity and togetherness.
 
Tommy_Dickfingers said:
Reading a bit more on it this morning, the likes of Macron & Merkel have panicked imo.

They poured cold water over it's effectiveness a few weeks back so if they were to say 'don't worry it's safe and crack on' and even one person dies from the side effects, the political fall out for them will be catastrophic.

And reading even more about what experts in the field are saying, the risk v risk scenario, it's quite breathtaking that theses countries are suspending the use when you see the overall benefits of having the population vaccinated.

It's quite ironic, the vaccination rollout will save Boris & Co but probably spell the end for Merkel. Macron et al............ my big worry is it let's in the far right in Europe.

Anyway, that's my thesis and I'm sticking to it..............now where's my vaccine so I can go to the pub !!
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I'm not saying she doesn't care of course, but Merkel is leaving in September regardless. Macron on the other hand, who know what his countries confidence in him is, it's really hard to tell. You could argue they took al ot of notice of him when he came out with his quasi statement regarding the AZ vaccine as it's got a huge rejection percentage in France.
 
Doom_On_Horseback said:
There's no doubt where the source of this is from. However, without apportioning blame or indeed siding with anyone, the main EU countries (or by that I mean the larger countries) definitely support each other in decision making and once one big hitter presses the button, the other quickly follow and not always because they necessary want to, but it's a show of unity and togetherness.
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The decisions from the 'big hitters' came later than from the smaller EU countries. That argument doesn't hold either.
 
Doom_On_Horseback said:
There's no doubt where the source of this is from. However, without apportioning blame or indeed siding with anyone, the main EU countries (or by that I mean the larger countries) definitely support each other in decision making and once one big hitter presses the button, the other quickly follow and not always because they necessary want to, but it's a show of unity and togetherness.
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I know and I get that. It just confused me in this case because its only this week its happened. Last week it was Denmark Iceland and Norway that had stopped using the virus. Ommiting the ever rebellious Swedes it seemed like a Scandinavian thing and not an EU thing. I wouldn't call Iceland a big hitter and in world terms the none EU country probably has more sway than the two EU countries at the moment. I realise now a few more EU countries have followed suite
 
SmallTown said:
I know and I get that. It just confused me in this case because its only this week its happened. Last week it was Denmark Iceland and Norway that had stopped using the virus. Ommiting the ever rebellious Swedes it seemed like a Scandinavian thing and not an EU thing. I wouldn't call Iceland a big hitter and in world terms the none EU country probably has more sway than the two EU countries at the moment. I realise now a few more EU countries have followed suite
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Bulgaria, Latvia, Estonia and Lituania were early on as well.
 
Corcaigh_the_Cat said:
The decisions from the 'big hitters' came later than from the smaller EU countries. That argument doesn't hold either.
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I more meant that once one of them decide to go, (the more powerful and large of the EU countries) the rest follow. I appreciate that smaller countries halted it first after the Scandinavian countries.

Look, I'm not trying to point the finger or call foul play or sinister ulterior motives, I'm merely saying that they support each other on many things, and it's not always what each country wants to do, but they fall in line accordingly so as to not upset one another.
 
Doom_On_Horseback said:
I more meant that once one of them decide to go, (the more powerful and large of the EU countries) the rest follow. I appreciate that smaller countries halted it first after the Scandinavian countries.

Look, I'm not trying to point the finger or call foul play or sinister ulterior motives, I'm merely saying that they support each other on many things, and it's not always what each country wants to do, but they fall in line accordingly so as to not upset one another.
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How many EU countries have pulled the plug until further research?

I agree about the EU countries supporting one another, rightly that's what the EU all about, and should be, and why the standard of living has improved so much in what were impoverished nations. Perhaps also why we're not handling the pandemic so well.

I'm not sure that's been the case here. The EU authority is still backing the use of the drug, the individual nations are using their sovereignty to make decisions (we claimed we didn't have any) with regards to it.
 
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