No worries at all.
If I could educate the public on one point regarding policing.
- Thread starter Heam44
- Start date
1finny
Well-known member
Can we use this to educate the public on your point?
I wonder what weapon this elderly lady was hiding when she took a punch in the stomach from this policeman.
r00fie1
Well-known member
She is clearly a threat to the officer - even with his body armour, anti-stab vest, taser, pepper spray, cuffs, padded gloves and one-on-one combat training.
Heam44
Well-known member
That appears to be a public order / riot incident.
Also, I’m certain he won’t have any idea who she is, and wouldn’t have been passed any information about her.
Which is of course completely different to the scenario I described in the OP.
Regarding his general conduct (based on the 5 second clip) his actions could range from being an unlawful assault to completely justified. Depending on what has happened in the moments before that incident.
But without seeing what happened prior to that clip, I’d only be guessing.
But I am certain he will have justify his actions (and if I was a betting man, I’d guess he might struggle) and if he can’t, he will pay the price.
1finny
Well-known member
She is clearly a threat to the officer - even with his body armour, anti-stab vest, taser, pepper spray, cuffs, padded gloves and one-on-one combat training.
In his ear piece
’Get the old lady - very dangerous.......concealing an avocado‘
American_Mary
Well-known member
Policing is a two way thing and in my experience too many officers are lacking the vital communication skills that would make their job easier and reduce the number of situations that escalate beyond what they need to, obviously there are situations where more drastic actions are required and it can be a thankless job, but as a career it does attract too many ‘alpha male’ types who are not best suited to the requirements of everyday policing.
Heam44
Well-known member
Just to clarify, I don’t live in Teesside and I’m not in Cleveland police.
I do understand your point regarding Cleveland police not being held in the highest regard though.
ticker_tape
Well-known member
They have different forms of recruitment, some of the organised crime needs thinking men and cavemen. The approach taken versus protesters depends on orders I suppose.
Heam44
Well-known member
I definitely agree and have already stated so at 1849hrs.
However, it’s often difficult given the communication skills and behaviour of the people we often interact with.
Heam44
Well-known member
You are not the law.
If you want to be of any use to people I suggest you volunteer your spare time at the local Legal Advice Centre or Citizens Advice.
Perhaps finding a role working with victims of Domestic Violence or in local diversion projects with persistent offenders related to substance and alcohol dependence?
Try putting you experience into benefit local children in inner - city schools.
Maybe you already do?
Thats if you are what you lead us to believe.
After all "impartiality" and a presumption of innocence is important in our country, isnt it?
Its important to admit that there is institutional racism and prejudices in the "Police" force, which leads to disproportionate targeting of differnet members of our population.
The police are also used to spy on legitimate legal citizens and even adopt the names of dead children whilst forming intimate relationships with those they are spying on; Mark Kennedy being a notable example.
The Stephen Laurence Case still has many questions left unanswered.
The power to stop and search on grounds of "reasonable suspicion" is a licence to profile, arrest, harrass and intimidate with impunity.
The use of Military tactics and techniques honed from Northern Ireland and the use of informers on the premis of "anti - terrorism" is well dsocumented. "Kettling" innocent protesters is a technique learned from the military. It has nothing to do with "safety" - it is a tactic to intimidate and contain people - like the School Children who were unlawfully detained by the Met, protesting in Trafalgar Square in 2011.
Some as young as 9 were surrounded by Police Officers for up to 6 hours - having to urinate on the floor, with no food or able to get out of this human military compound.
Bugging, intercepting communications, surveillance and embeding sleepers in organisations is a major part of the police role in Britain today. The implications for democracy, the right to privacy and the right to bring elected and unelected public officials, servants and employees to account - should concern us all.
This is not about individuals - its about the policing-system per se`.
Its not about the Sargant who died yesterday.
Its about being accountable to the public who pay their wages and transparency.
Its about officers and their seniors admitting liability and facing the legal consequences, not closing ranks and kicking serious incidents and systemic failures into the long grass.
If you want to discuss "Policing", lets widen the discussion into the the area of football: Hillsborough and the 96. The current campaign by a group of Boro fans who were allegedly stopped from attending an away match for no legitimate reason.(?).
Justice for Orgreave is also an ongoing issue which is important for those innocent victims of police brutality to bring the perpetrators to justice.
Thats what we`re here for isnt it.
Regarding the vast amount of text you’ve since added to this particular post (obviously the initial post only consisted of -
“You are not the law.
If you want to be of any use to people I suggest you volunteer your spare time at the local Legal Advice Centre or Citizens Advice.”)
I couldn’t offer much insight into the vast majority of things you’ve stated, obviously the issues you have mentioned are far above my pay scale / level / experience etc.
Regarding your comments on domestic abuse etc, I will say I have just recently completed a 6 week attachment in our interval Domestic Abuse Unit and I’m currently completing a 4 week attachment in our safeguarding unit.
However, I’d be interested you know what you meant when you said:
“Thats if you are what you lead us to believe.”
r00fie1
Well-known member
Try looking on your own doorstep before condescending to talk about "type of person" and "the type of person we interact with".
That attitude reflects peoples lived experiences:
Waiting for a copper to arrive days after a reported burgulary.
People driving around on quad bikes and terrorising neighbourhoods whilst the police appear conspicuous by their absence.
Accidents being reported and nothing appears to be done.
Leaving vulnerable volatile people in A&E - handing the responsibility to nurses instead of taking them to a place of safety.
Hate crime - where fine words on a website mean nothing until someone is terrorised or seriously injured.
Kicking along the local homeless person and patting your self on the back for moving on beggars - to where?
An arrogant attitude where people feel totally disconnected and have no faith in local police to do what they say they will.
Treating ordinary people with an off-hand deprecating attitude - I know best...
Moaning the Police are under - resourced [arent we all].
People dont want "attitude" - they want connection and support.
All this rubbish about the people you "interact" with is because of the attitude.
Try adopting the same attitude to those people whom Social Workers, Nurses, A&E, Teachers, Probation Officers have to face.
The coppers are not the only ones.
Stop playing the vicitm.
We have created the society we live in and we have to face the consequences.
How is the homeless soldier living on the street meant to react to harrassment from a copper in a uniform? Oh thank you officer - very kind of you?!
We have massive social deprivation and poverty not seen since the 1930s and that is reflected in drug use, anti-social behaviour, etc, etc.
The way individuals interact influences behaviour.
The fact it is across society means its not "just" "individuals". "Bad apples" - and all the myths and crap the media chucks at us.
We start by taking collective responsibility for what we have in front of us.
OK its not "pleasant" facing the consequences and we can begin by creating opportunities in our local communities.
We have to be pro-active, not reactive.
You wont see it in the media - but there are hundreds of local people doing their bit to help others - where Government has left them to fend for themselves - this is not some academic concept.
It is a time consuming process.
It starts now.
In the mean time its short term pain for long term gain.
No apologies.
Thats how it is.
Text-books are text-books: on a library shelf they arent a guide for what really happens in peoples real lives.
That attitude reflects peoples lived experiences:
Waiting for a copper to arrive days after a reported burgulary.
People driving around on quad bikes and terrorising neighbourhoods whilst the police appear conspicuous by their absence.
Accidents being reported and nothing appears to be done.
Leaving vulnerable volatile people in A&E - handing the responsibility to nurses instead of taking them to a place of safety.
Hate crime - where fine words on a website mean nothing until someone is terrorised or seriously injured.
Kicking along the local homeless person and patting your self on the back for moving on beggars - to where?
An arrogant attitude where people feel totally disconnected and have no faith in local police to do what they say they will.
Treating ordinary people with an off-hand deprecating attitude - I know best...
Moaning the Police are under - resourced [arent we all].
People dont want "attitude" - they want connection and support.
All this rubbish about the people you "interact" with is because of the attitude.
Try adopting the same attitude to those people whom Social Workers, Nurses, A&E, Teachers, Probation Officers have to face.
The coppers are not the only ones.
Stop playing the vicitm.
We have created the society we live in and we have to face the consequences.
How is the homeless soldier living on the street meant to react to harrassment from a copper in a uniform? Oh thank you officer - very kind of you?!
We have massive social deprivation and poverty not seen since the 1930s and that is reflected in drug use, anti-social behaviour, etc, etc.
The way individuals interact influences behaviour.
The fact it is across society means its not "just" "individuals". "Bad apples" - and all the myths and crap the media chucks at us.
We start by taking collective responsibility for what we have in front of us.
OK its not "pleasant" facing the consequences and we can begin by creating opportunities in our local communities.
We have to be pro-active, not reactive.
You wont see it in the media - but there are hundreds of local people doing their bit to help others - where Government has left them to fend for themselves - this is not some academic concept.
It is a time consuming process.
It starts now.
In the mean time its short term pain for long term gain.
No apologies.
Thats how it is.
Text-books are text-books: on a library shelf they arent a guide for what really happens in peoples real lives.
Heam44
Well-known member
Just to clarify I'm not referring to victims of crime, witnesses etc, I'm referring to SOME people who are perpetrators of crime. SOME who are persistent perpetrators of crime.
I'm certain we do interact with the those people whom Social Workers, Nurses, A&E, Teachers, Probation Officers have to face. (Although I'm conscious I may be misinterpreting the point you're trying to make).
Lastly, I'm not playing the victim in any way shape or form.
r00fie1
Well-known member
I suggest you look at the big picture - dont imagine my contribution is about you as a person or an individual [I cant speak for others].
Im glad that you are going on the courses, but you cant replace experience with enthusiasm.
Get out there and I wish you well in your career.
Ive met many many good honest coppers in work and life over the years.
I dont believe for one minute "all coppers are ******?!"
In a previous incarnation I worked closely with a local force who created a "Motor Project" where young offenders convicted of vehicle - related offences attended twice a week to learn mechanical skills and vehicle maintenance. The copper was a Detective Sargant who had a passion for Speedway and banger-racing.
On Fridays we had access to a circuit maintained by the local council and spent an hour racing - although these days it might be H&S risk (!). Many of those lads [and it was lads] went on to college courses and trained to be mechanics.
When you experience small successes like that and see lads who might otherwise end up in trouble - achieve some success in their young lives - its very rewarding.You can make a real difference.
The Sargant was initially ridiculed and told he was wasting his time - but he proved the doubters wrong.
Happy days.
Good luck by the way.
Im supposed to be decorating the kitchen.
Bye for now.
Heam44
Well-known member
Yeah I 100% agree that a large portion if the people I am referring to need help instead of punishment.
Also, I’m not the type of person or police officer who believes I am ‘better’ than some of the people I am referring to. I have always been aware that people are mostly a product of their environment / circumstances / childhood / general bad luck etc. And that their problems and issues often aren’t their own faults (to varying degrees from person to person).
And often the most frustrating and ironic points about the interactions with the people I have referred to is that we attend the incident as it’s our duty to make sure everyone is safe etc and fully intend to deal with the situation with words or advice etc but are forced to deal with it in other ways due to the reaction / response / behaviour of some of the people we are dealing with.
It’s even more frustrating when the person we are dealing with is only behaving in the ways I’m referring to as they are being influenced by there supposed mates.