HS2 probably not going to run into central London

[Emmersons_BrazillianDong]

Probably. And how much value has it delivered? It’s great for people who live in London and Kent, but the rest of still fly to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam.

Funny you should say that. I was literally about to edit my post and say that I don't know a single person in my friends group from boro, who've flown to Paris in the last 5 years or so.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen by any stretch and hands up, I live in the South East so am almost certainly biased on its efficacy, but genuinely I know that about 5/6 couples from home who've gone for the train in the past few years and not the plane.

I wonder if any others from boro have any reflections on this?

 

[atypical_boro]

Funny you should say that. I was literally about to edit my post and say that I don't know a single person in my friends group from boro, who've flown to Paris in the last 5 years or so.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen by any stretch and hands up, I live in the South East so am almost certainly biased on its efficacy, but genuinely I know that about 5/6 couples from home who've gone for the train in the past few years and not the plane.

I wonder if any others from boro have any reflections on this?

It’s an interesting one. I live close to Manchester airport so it’s a no brainer not to get the train, I DID use Eurostar when I lived in London but only when I lived fairly close to St Pancras, not when I lived South (quicker to Gatwick).

 

[Anton_Berg]

The unused HS2 tunnels will be useful shelters from Russian missiles.

 

[JackG]

Funny you should say that. I was literally about to edit my post and say that I don't know a single person in my friends group from boro, who've flown to Paris in the last 5 years or so.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen by any stretch and hands up, I live in the South East so am almost certainly biased on its efficacy, but genuinely I know that about 5/6 couples from home who've gone for the train in the past few years and not the plane.

I wonder if any others from boro have any reflections on this?

It doesn't matter if they want to use Eurostar as they probably won't get on. Due to Brexit they're having to run the trains half empty as they can't process the passports fast enough

 

[Brian Marwood]

Funny you should say that. I was literally about to edit my post and say that I don't know a single person in my friends group from boro, who've flown to Paris in the last 5 years or so.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen by any stretch and hands up, I live in the South East so am almost certainly biased on its efficacy, but genuinely I know that about 5/6 couples from home who've gone for the train in the past few years and not the plane.

I wonder if any others from boro have any reflections on this?

I travel to Paris quite frequently from Hull and always take the Eurostar as it’s easy, comfortable and relaxing.

On the flip side, CDG is a horrendous airport and one I will always avoid even if only transitting.

 

[Glover_elbow]

From an article in 2019 when the West Coast changed franchisee:

... almost all of whom are now run by other European Countries.

German state railway Deutsche Bahn operates four British railways including the London overground and the Grand Central line to Sunderland. Seven UK railways are operated or partly-operated by Dutch state railway Nederlandse Spoorwegen (NS), including Merseyrail, Scotrail and the West Midlands Railway. Seven railways are operated fully or partly by French state railway SNCF, including Transport for Wales and the Thameslink.

Out of roughly 30 UK railways, only six are fully owned and operated by private companies or British government authorities

Madness. There must be a reason why this rarely, if ever, exists in any other country.

..... and no, the answer isn't bring back the old British Rail, but to have a single nationally owned, modern and well run rail system. Like virtually every other developed economy. A good name might be British Rail.

Couldn't agree more when is it ever a good idea to sell the countries assets and infrastructure to foreign businesses . The irony of being told the ownership and sovereignty Brexit would bring us when we've already flogged anything of worth overseas. Its a national scandal.

 

[SmallTown]

I've worked at Old Oak Common. It's not pretty.

It sounds nice though

 

[r00fie1]

If anyone looks at the route of HS2, much of it just cuts out bottle-necks on the existing system and gives the High Speed Train a clear pathway, not much further from existing lines.
Dont know what all the fuss is about - other than politiciians holding things up.
Would be different if they interfered with road-building on grounds of cost and profitability!

 

[Andy_W]

You said it much better than I did bud. But that's effectively what I was referring to. The timings are a red herring and the capacity needed was urgent at the turn of the millennium.

It absolutely should be extending as far north as possible and trying to solve the west/east issues in the north too

Haha, I didn't even read much of the other posts before I posted, the article just ***ed me off and as I glanced down to hit reply I could see a few of the usual HS2 replies already.

You're 100% right in what you wrote, especially about the bad marketing of it. I expect that was done as people struggle to understand capacity, so they use "but it's faster", to sell it to those looking at it on a more basic level.

They didn't really need to sell it to me, no additional infrastructure schemes need much selling, they all pay themselves back with a lot more certainty than fiddling or upgrading what we already have. I suppose they all keep the construction sector ticking over too, a lot of what gets spent, comes right back in other ways, almost immediately, if we source as much as possible from the UK.

The more I think about it, the article does look a bit planted, if you have no good news, but need something, then chuck in some bad, so your mates can then rebute it, with ease, so "the flow" has gone from bad to good, for nothing. It's like the guy who has £10, he's not happy with his £10, so you take the £10 off him, ends up less happy still, but then you give him that back and his mood picks up, probably higher than where it was originally (in reality he's gained zero, and been worse off for a time). The Tories will try the same thing in 24-25, when the economy comes out of recession, they will be pointing at "the signs of growth" and the brexit crowd will lap it up, yet not mentioning the massive hole we dived in since the brexit vote.

The West to East thing and a full electrified link to Teesside (and up to Edinburgh) needs sorting for us more than the HS2 leg to Leeds mind. The NW link going as far as possible is more important/ cost efficient than the Leeds leg too.

 

[atypical_boro]

If anyone looks at the route of HS2, much of it just cuts out bottle-necks on the existing system and gives the High Speed Train a clear pathway, not much further from existing lines.
Dont know what all the fuss is about - other than politiciians holding things up.
Would be different if they interfered with road-building on grounds of cost and profitability!

View attachment 51876

You do know that most of this stuff isn’t going ahead?

 

[Andy_W]

If anyone looks at the route of HS2, much of it just cuts out bottle-necks on the existing system and gives the High Speed Train a clear pathway, not much further from existing lines.
Dont know what all the fuss is about - other than politiciians holding things up.
Would be different if they interfered with road-building on grounds of cost and profitability!

View attachment 51876

That image should help explain the problems to some. If more of the Edinburgh/ Scotland traffic all goes down that route, then it should help the ECML, as well as HS2 sucking up traffic from Leeds/ Sheffield/ Nottingham etc.

Then couple that with signalling getting sorted on ECML, it should have less people on it, and be able to run at 140mph straight away, rather than 120mph, and do that in more sections.

It also says "based on current indicative service specification", where as by the time HS2 comes out, we might have trains doing 150 on the ECML, maybe more on the more direct trains.

 

[atypical_boro]

That image should help explain the problems to some. If more of the Edinburgh/ Scotland traffic all goes down that route, then it should help the ECML, as well as HS2 sucking up traffic from Leeds/ Sheffield/ Nottingham etc.

Then couple that with signalling getting sorted on ECML, it should have less people on it, and be able to run at 140mph straight away, rather than 120mph, and do that in more sections.

It also says "based on current indicative service specification", where as by the time HS2 comes out, we might have trains doing 150 on the ECML, maybe more on the more direct trains.

Wel, it probably won’t be finished until 2050. By which time Hyperloop One might be fully operational.

 

[r00fie1]

That image should help explain the problems to some. If more of the Edinburgh/ Scotland traffic all goes down that route, then it should help the ECML, as well as HS2 sucking up traffic from Leeds/ Sheffield/ Nottingham etc.

Then couple that with signalling getting sorted on ECML, it should have less people on it, and be able to run at 140mph straight away, rather than 120mph, and do that in more sections.

It also says "based on current indicative service specification", where as by the time HS2 comes out, we might have trains doing 150 on the ECML, maybe more on the more direct trains.

Agree with what you said earlier Andy to Emmerson.
Forget that Birmingham - Nottingham - Sheffield - Link.
Its a pzz take: like repainting old platform seats.
The Lonsdon St Pancras - Sheffield Main Line is the only Main-Line out of London which isnt electrifired!
You can get from Kings Cross to just south of Darlington on the fastest train compared to the same time from St Pancras to Sheffield!!
Cinderella.

 

[Andy_W]

You do know that most of this stuff isn’t going ahead?

It either goes ahead now, or in 2040, or 2050, or 2060, pick which one you want it to be? HS2 should have been completed before 2000, and the other upgrades a decade ago or finishing now.

Closing our eyes won't make the problems go away, we either plan for it and pay for it, or it comes back and bites us, and we get forced into it, and paying more.

 

[Johngannonsunderpants]

It is deplorable in this country: the complete lack of any foresight, planning and insight into the need for a modern co-ordinated, integrated, transport system. Politicians cannot run a raffle, let alone a cheap, efficient, reliable, public transport system.

In the 6th richest economy in the world, we have the most aged, inadequate, slow, over-priced, publically subsidised, creaking, railway infrastructure in Europe. We pay the highest fares per passenger mile in Europe, with passengers experiencing cancelled trains - daily- and the constant failure of an under-invested system ["signalling problems" / broken down trains / "fault on the line", etc].

Why have we accepted the joke of Avanti West Coast and all its predicessors, dirty diesel multiple units and carriage stock built over 30 years ago and "stations" converted into nothing more than bus-shelters. The only alternative is the unsustainable use of the private car. We pour billions into tarmacking vast tracts of arable farmland and building by-passes to speed up congestion to the next roundabout. We have no joined up thinking on transport. Some Cities have reasonably modern trams, whilst others are in the dark ages. Whats wasteful is having empty heads in the Cabinet who have no idea and dont care.

Its easy to be dragged into the media-fueled ignorance and hysteria when HS2 is mentioned - but the big picture is: where do we want to be in transport terms, next week, next month, next year and in 10 years time? Its beyond a joke for those of us who use public transport. As for being "carbon neutral" and meeting Climate Change targets - its a pzz take.

They have an idea, its called making money out of making it an absolute **** show. We need to open our eyes, we overspend on everything. **** poor planning means they and their chums pocket more of our taxes.

 

[Andy_W]

Wel, it probably won’t be finished until 2050. By which time Hyperloop One might be fully operational.

The additional time it takes (and cost) will be proportional to how much people whinge about it, and how much we shaft ourselves with our own stupid regulations.

I'd rather we didn't have to do it, and didn't have to spend £100bn too, but the reality is not now or never, it's now or in 10,20,30 years time, when it causes more problems at a lot more cost.

 

[atypical_boro]

The additional time it takes (and cost) will be proportional to how much people whinge about it, and how much we shaft ourselves with our own stupid regulations.

I'd rather we didn't have to do it, and didn't have to spend £100bn too, but the reality is not now or never, it's now or in 10,20,30 years time, when it causes more problems at a lot more cost.

I agree with you. But the problems you’ve said need to be solved don’t appear to even be on the roadmap anymore. All the noises coming out of HS2 now are that it will never extend beyond Birmingham any longer.

 

[Andy_W]

They have an idea, its called making money out of making it an absolute **** show. We need to open our eyes, we overspend on everything. **** poor planning means they and their chums pocket more of our taxes.

It's not so much planning, from what I've been involved in its massive overspending, bending over to land and asset owners.

An example from what I've been involved in (loads of these), any time they cross an existing utility (Gas, BT, Electric, Water, Sewers etc), they're replacing it (pre-diverting it before the track gets built) with much higher spec, with a much longer life, and replacing 100m on either side of it. Effectively the utility suppliers are getting brand new equipment back at a much higher spec, and more of it, for nothing. Then HS2 have to pay ridiculous amounts to get this all re-connected to the diversions they've installed, which is an uncontestable cost (ie they get charged whatever the asset owners want to make the bill up as). I've priced loads of schemes ranging from 100k to 5m, most of them could have been done at 10% of the cost, if replacing like for like (but new), for the shortest distance to achieve the aim.

HS2 is getting bent over the barrel by gutless government, and designers are being forced to bend over backwards to upgrade everyone's stuff. It's the same on roads, houses, land etc, they've having to upgrade two miles of a muddy farmers access track, because they cross 50m of his land etc, it's bonkers. Think how many times that's happening.

Never mind that people are charging money for land, based on assumed price increases as HS2 runs near, where as they land would not be worth that value if it wasn't built, it's crackers. Just pay them the going rate (as it was before the route was announced, subject to inflation), and say that's all you're getting.

 

[JackG]

The obvious solution is for all northern cities to have a new high-speed connection to Teesside airport, where they could disembark and fly to London. The airport may need to upgrade rail access from 1 train per week, but it's doable. We even have a Fat Controller preinstalled.

 

[Andy_W]

I agree with you. But the problems you’ve said need to be solved don’t appear to even be on the roadmap anymore. All the noises coming out of HS2 now are that it will never extend beyond Birmingham any longer.

They are being solved, the ECML has had a lot of major upgrades already (at nightmare spots and kings cross etc), the signalling has all been sorted already I think, and 140mph trains tested. Station upgrades at Darlo and Teesside, direct trains to London from boro etc.

HS2 will go to Crewe I've zero doubt in that, but that's phase 2a, it's starting construction in a year.

HS2 Phase 2b will go to Manchester, that's due to start construction in 2.5 years. The last vote on it was 200 for, 5 against I think. Labour won't put the breaks on that, as they want the seats where it's going to feed.