Hmmmm!😜 Very interesting article about 'Boro's problem's in midfield!

Dropped a b*llock putting Downing in there like (for 2014/15)
on face value it looks like Warnock has benefited from higher value players than Aitor Karanka..

Joe Lumley - Dimitrios Konstantopoulos - Free/Free
Anfernee Dijksteel - Ryan Fredericks - £2m/Loan
Grant Hall - Kenneth Omeruo - Free/Loan
Dael Fry - Ben Gibson - Academy/Academy
Marcus Tavernier - Albert Adomah - Academy/£1m
Onel Hernández - Yanic Wildschut - Loan/£720k
Uche Ikpeazu - Kike - £750k/£2m
Martín Payero - Jelle Vossen - £6m/Loan
Andraž Šporar - Patrick Bamford - Loan/Loan
Marcus Browne - Jordan Jones - Academy/Academy
Toyosi Olusanya - Emmanuel Ledesma - Free/Free
Lee Peltier - Dean Whitehead - Free/Free
Jonny Howson - Adam Clayton - £5m/£2m
Paddy McNair - Daniel Ayala - £5m/£400k
Duncan Watmore - Lee Tomlin - Free/£2m
Darnell Fisher - Damia - £300k/Free
Sammy Ameobi - Mustapha Carayol - Free/£600k
Sol Bamba - Jonathan Woodgate - Free/Free
James Léa Siliki - Adam Forshaw - Loan/£2.5m
Connor Malley - Miloš Veljković - Academy/Loan
Matt Crooks - Grant Leadbitter - £1m/Free
Marc Bola - George Friend - £200k/£100k
Luke Daniels - Tomás Mejías - Free/Free
Dejan Stojanović - Jamal Blackman - £1m/Loan
Jeremy Sivi - James Husband - Academy/Academy
Isaiah Jones - Adam Reach - Academy/Academy
Brad James - Jason Steele - Academy/Academy
Josh Coburn - Luke Williams - Academy/Academy
Malik Dijksteel - Bradley Fewster - Academy/Academy
Cain Sykes - Richard Smallwood - Academy/Academy

Seb Hines - Academy
Tomas Kalas - Loan

Based on initial transfer fees it appears that Neil Warnock has benefitted from £21.25m plus three loans where as Aitor Karanka has scraped by with £15.82m and seven loan players. I would say that Tony Mowbray's excellent value signings are comparable with Neil Warnock's and the higher value players were brought in under Monk and Pulis Howson & McNair are similar in standard and importance to Ayala and Clayton of Karanka's tenure.

Martin Payero is the exception with a £6m transfer fee comparable with the £5.5m spent on Downing (the season after).

It's a hash and I'm aware I'm making my point in instalments here.. often repeating the same.
 
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Lets have a look in the squad where people are getting the idea that Warnock is a dinosaur and he is no where near Aitor Karanka in terms of results, players and this arbitrary idea of not being progressive or forward thinking. I've seen a few few comments online to be able to pick out a few where fans have been overly critical and relating players to an outdated style of play, coaching etc (apologies for not complaining a dossier with all the names of online fans making up a load of tripe)


Joe Lumley - Dimitrios Konstantopoulos - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Anfernee Dijksteel - Ryan Fredericks - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Grant Hall - Kenneth Omeruo
Dael Fry - Ben Gibson - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Marcus Tavernier - Albert Adomah - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Onel Hernández - Yanic Wildschut - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Uche Ikpeazu - Kike
Martín Payero - Jelle Vossen - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Andraž Šporar - Patrick Bamford - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Marcus Browne - Jordan Jones - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Toyosi Olusanya - Emmanuel Ledesma
Lee Peltier - Dean Whitehead
Jonny Howson - Adam Clayton - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Paddy McNair - Daniel Ayala - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Duncan Watmore - Lee Tomlin - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Darnell Fisher - Damia
Sammy Ameobi - Mustapha Carayol
Sol Bamba - Jonathan Woodgate
James Léa Siliki - Adam Forshaw - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Connor Malley - Miloš Veljković - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Matt Crooks - Grant Leadbitter
Marc Bola - George Friend - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Luke Daniels - Tomás Mejías - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Dejan Stojanović - Jamal Blackman - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Jeremy Sivi - James Husband - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Isaiah Jones - Adam Reach - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Brad James - Jason Steele - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Josh Coburn - Luke Williams - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Malik Dijksteel - Bradley Fewster - Progressive & Forward Thinking
Cain Sykes - Richard Smallwood - Progressive & Forward Thinking

Grant Hall vs Kenneth Omeruo
'The defensive stalwart'
Kenneth Omerou made 19 appearances 2014-15 and wasn't as good as he was the season before Grant Hall made 19 appearances last season

Uche Ikpeazu vs Kike Garcia
'The hard working number nine'
Kike scored 10 goals in 45 league appearances Uche Ikpeazu has 2 in 3 so far

Toyosi Olusanya vs Emmanuel Ledesma
'The unknown quantity'
The roll of the dice, the lucky dip, that attacking player that might just click or has been overlooked for some reason. Karanka can one in the squad but with Warnock it's a huge mistake that goes against the will of Kieran Scott (who hadn't started working for us)

Lee Peltier vs Dean Whitehead
'The experienced head on dependable shoulders'
This is the sort of guy you want to go into battle with he's been there and done it. A tough nut and no nonsense example to the younger lads.

Darnell Fisher - Damia Abella
'The curse of the missing right back'
from Rhys Williams to Alex Baptiste the seemingly never-ending flip book of right backs that we thought we'd cracked with Anfernee Dijksteel, lament the decision to loan Djed Spence who joins a long list of the almost could have maybes Dwight Tiendalli, Frazer Richardson, Jozsef Varga, Ryan Fredericks, Tomas Kalas..

Sammy Ameobi - Mustapha Carayol
'The left sided attacking player that due to a knee injury cannot feature or produce at a level that has previously been seen'
I'm not saying they were playing right back in training or

Sol Bamba vs Jonathan Woodgate
'The classy senior defender'
Don't tell me you haven't thought of it. Sol Bamba a bit of an awkward stop gap who might have been able to do a job for us 10 years ago.. comes back after battling cancer to look like a prime time Jonathan Woodgate. As a boro fan speaking of a defender in recent years I can think of no higher compliment to pay.
That perfectly timed tackle that, that scissor like movement that cuts off a dangerous attack. BEAUTIFUL

Matt Crooks vs Grant Leadbitter
'The midfield general'
The leader, the steel, the driving attack when you need it and the thunderous finish.. almost blasphemous to put any player alongside Grant Leadbitter in a comparison. Nobody has looked even close, no one dares say it. I will.. i'm not scared Matt Crooks is our man, the player that we never thought we'd see the likes of again. Do they even make midfielders like that anymore? Ex Man Utd academy passed on to Huddersfield, five seasons and one appearance a failed loan to Hartlepool United and a transfer to Accrington Stanley from the ground up rises this absolute gem of a midfielder.

THE NEW GRANT LEADBITTER ( nevermind 'the poor mans Faris Haroun' Marouane Fellaini - Matt Crookes is the real deal)

Proof? Evidence? or maybe just a bit of perspective so fans can get off the bullsh*t bandwagon and start enjoying the season?

UTB x
 
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newyddion said:
Dropped a b*llock putting Downing in there like (for 2014/15)
on face value it looks like Warnock has benefited from higher value players than Aitor Karanka..

Joe Lumley - Dimitrios Konstantopoulos - Free/Free
Anfernee Dijksteel - Ryan Fredericks - £2m/Loan
Grant Hall - Kenneth Omeruo - Free/Loan
Dael Fry - Ben Gibson - Academy/Academy
Marcus Tavernier - Stewart Downing - Academy/£5.5m
Onel Hernández - Yanic Wildschut - Loan/£720k
Uche Ikpeazu - Kike - £750k/£2m
Martín Payero - Jelle Vossen - £6m/Loan
Andraž Šporar - Patrick Bamford - Loan/Loan
Marcus Browne - Jordan Jones - Academy/Academy
Toyosi Olusanya - Emmanuel Ledesma - Free/Free
Lee Peltier - Dean Whitehead - Free/Free
Jonny Howson - Adam Clayton - £5m/£2m
Paddy McNair - Daniel Ayala - £5m/£400k
Duncan Watmore - Lee Tomlin - Free/£2m
Darnell Fisher - Damia - £300k/Free
Sammy Ameobi - Mustapha Carayol - Free/£600k
Sol Bamba - Jonathan Woodgate - Free/Free
James Léa Siliki - Adam Forshaw - Loan/£2.5m
Connor Malley - Miloš Veljković - Academy/Loan
Matt Crooks - Grant Leadbitter - £1m/Free
Marc Bola - George Friend - £200k/£100k
Luke Daniels - Tomás Mejías - Free/Free
Dejan Stojanović - Jamal Blackman - £1m/Loan
Jeremy Sivi - James Husband - Academy/Academy
Isaiah Jones - Adam Reach - Academy/Academy
Brad James - Jason Steele - Academy/Academy
Josh Coburn - Luke Williams - Academy/Academy
Malik Dijksteel - Bradley Fewster - Academy/Academy
Cain Sykes - Richard Smallwood - Academy/Academy

Seb Hines - Academy
Tomas Kalas - Loan

Based on initial transfer fees it appears that Neil Warnock has benefitted from £21.25m plus three loans where as Aitor Karanka has scraped by with £15.82m and seven loan players. I would say that Tony Mowbray's excellent value signings are comparable with Neil Warnock's and the higher value players were brought in under Monk and Pulis Howson & McNair are similar in standard and importance to Ayala and Clayton of Karanka's tenure.

Martin Payero is the exception with a £6m transfer fee comparable with the £5.5m spent on Downing.

It's a hash and I'm aware I'm making my point in instalments here.. often repeating the same.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure there is any value in comparing pre-covid squad transfer fees with post covid
 
BoroMart said:
I'm not sure there is any value in comparing pre-covid squad transfer fees with post covid
Click to expand...
No but I think it's worth comparing a squads of two seasons that are quite similar.. both seasons showing squads at similar levels of progression and success where as one manager is lauded as being classy and successful where as the other with almost identical outcomes to date is seen to be tacky and outdated.

Imagine being 14 games into the 2014/15 season maintaining position despite a series of unfortunate injuries to several key players.. and rather than being filled with optimism and hope, we had folks calling for the managers head?!?!
 
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Y
newyddion said:
No but I think it's worth comparing a squads of two seasons that are quite similar.. both seasons showing squads at similar levels of progression and success where as one manager is lauded as being classy and successful where as the other with almost identical outcomes to date is seen to be tacky and outdated.

Imagine being 14 games into the 2014/15 season maintaining position despite a series of unfortunate injuries to several key players.. and rather than being filled with optimism and hope, we had folks calling for the managers head?!?!
Click to expand...
You were saying...?
 
Ted_DN38416 said:
Y

You were saying...?
Click to expand...

My post from the 29th September saying we would be on 21 points?

newyddion said:
THE REST OF THE FIRST HALF OF THIS SEASON

7 Wins - Tony Pulis 'Smash the League Territory' (5th)
9 Wins - Aitor Karanka 'Automatic Promotion Territory' (2nd)

We need at least 5/6 points from the next three games imo

LWWLWWLWWLWLL

October 2021
Sat 2 Hull City A - 21st - LOSS
Sat 16 Peterborough United H - 23rd - WIN
Wed 20 Barnsley H - 22nd - WIN
Sat 23 Cardiff City A - 20th - LOSS
Sat 30 Birmingham City H - 16th - WIN 21 Points

November 2021
Tue 2 Luton Town A - 13th - WIN
Sat 6 West Bromwich Albion A - 2nd - LOSS
Sat 20 Millwall H - 11th - WIN
Tue 23 Preston North End H - 18th - WIN
Sat 27 Huddersfield Town A - 7th - LOSS 30 Points

December 2021
Sat 4 Swansea City H - 19th - WIN
Sat 11 Stoke City A - 4th - LOSS
Sat 18 AFC Bournemouth H - 1st - LOSS 33 Points*
Click to expand...

Do you mean that sort of 'you were saying'?

Been pretty quiet Ted.. I bet your over the moon with today's result like!
 
newyddion said:
My post from the 29th September saying we would be on 21 points?



Do you mean that sort of 'you were saying'?

Been pretty quiet Ted.. I bet your over the moon with today's result like!
Click to expand...
Subtlety isnt your thing is it. I hate it when we get beat im a Boro fan? I was intersted to see what you thought after todays result is all
 
Ted_DN38416 said:
Subtlety isn't your thing is it? I hate it when we get beat ,I'm a Boro fan! I was interested to see what you thought after todays result is all..
Click to expand...
Obviously I wanted us to continue our winning streak, another three points on the table would have been nice. The championship is very tight, there's not much difference in terms of quality only 12 points separate 5th & 21st places.

The top two are in cruise control, comfortably picking up 2ppg
3rd and 4th are around 1.8ppg
and then we have our target for this season (5th & 6th place) stumbling in with 1.6ppg

We are not in a position to challenge for the top two positions this season, even third and fourth would realistically be out of our reach given our resources.

A lot has been said this season regarding our midfield, Warnock is not coaching the team correctly, throwing Payero in at the deep end will fix everything, Johnny Howson is the devil, Tavernier is crap etc etc etc.. no one seems to mention our defence THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM I've made the comparison with the 2014/15 season and am happy to continue doing so..

1635621067520.png

Where previously I questioned if fans would have been calling for the managers head in the 2014/15 season after 14 games, I would also like to remind folks out there that we are currently without this seasons Ben Gibson, George Friend and Ryan Fredericks (Fry, Bola & Dijksteel) Karanka's 2014/15 team was well resourced and comfortably managed 1.8ppg finishing in 4th place.. I honestly don't think that will be us this season as I've stated before.

I would expect an average of 1.6ppg to see us in 6th place this season, as I've stated previously I believe we will average 1.5ppg over the next 8 games represented above by four more wins, after 23 games (half way) leaving us with a less that spectacular half way total of 33 points (anything more than this we should be shouting from the rooftops) Hopefully in the 2nd half of the season we are able to bring in on or two fresh faces that can provide cover where none has been available.

Put a fully fit Marcus Browne into the mix along with the return of Dael Fry, Marc Bola and Anfernee Dijksteel and I'm sure we'll see a brighter 2nd half of the season. It's not going to come from a change in management and certainly not from a manager picked out of thin air just because we used his training facilities in pre season.

The truth? We're not smashing the league.. although we might very well emulate the season in which we said we would! It doesn't look like 2ppg+ it looks like 1.6ppg and that means seeing some unexpected defeats along the way. We've only just dropped off Aitor Karanka form and it sent the podcasters and bloggers into a frenzy, were hitting Garry Monk/Tony Pulis territory.. fans called for both of their heads and regretted it soon after.
(Garry Monk was a Doyle and I hated the football under Tony Pulis)

What does success look like? It's not straight forward and it's very rarely linear. Success looks like a run of three wins and a loss against a bang average looking Birmingham side. Get behind the team and the manager and expect.. the expected. Results will not always go our way x

I almost forgot Grant Hall! This seasons Kenneth Omerou.. also injured.
 
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newyddion said:
Obviously I wanted us to continue our winning streak, another three points on the table would have been nice. The championship is very tight, there's not much difference in terms of quality only 12 points separate 5th & 21st places.

The top two are in cruise control, comfortably picking up 2ppg
3rd and 4th are around 1.8ppg
and then we have our target for this season stumbling in with 1.6ppg

We are not in a position to challenge for the top two positions this season, even third and fourth would realistically be out of our reach given our resources.

A lot has been said this season regarding our midfield, Warnock is not coaching the team correctly, throwing Payero in at the deep end will fix everything, Johnny Howson is the devil, Tavernier is crap etc etc etc.. no one seems to mention our defence THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM I've made the comparison with the 2014/15 season and am happy to continue doing so..

View attachment 27048

Where previously I questioned if fans would have been calling for the managers head in the 2014/15 season after 14 games, I would also like to remind folks out there that we are currently without this seasons Ben Gibson, George Friend and Ryan Fredericks (Fry, Bola & Dijksteel) Karanka's 2014/15 team was well resourced and comfortably managed 1.8ppg finishing in 4th place.. I honestly don't think that will be us this season as I've stated before.

I would expect an average of 1.6ppg to see us in 6th place this season, as I've stated previously I believe we will average 1.5ppg over the next 8 games represented above by four more wins, after 23 games (half way) leaving us with a less that spectacular half way total of 33 points (anything more than this we should be shouting from the rooftops) Hopefully in the 2nd half of the season we are able to bring in on or two fresh faces that can provide cover where none has been available.

Put a fully fit Marcus Browne into the mix along with the return of Dael Fry, Marc Bola and Anfernee Dijksteel and I'm sure we'll see a brighter 2nd half of the season. It's not going to come from a change in management and certainly not from a manager picked out of thin air just because we used his training facilities in pre season.

The truth? We're not smashing the league.. although we might very well emulate the season in which we said we would! It doesn't look like 2ppg+ it looks like 1.6ppg and that means seeing some unexpected defeats along the way. We've only just dropped off Aitor Karanka form and it sent the podcasters and bloggers into a frenzy, were hitting Garry Monk/Tony Pulis territory.. fans called for both of their heads and regretted it soon after.
(Garry Monk was a Doyle and I hated the football under Tony Pulis)

What does success look like? It's not straight forward and it's very rarely linear. Success looks like a run of three wins and a loss against a bang average looking Birmingham side. Get behind the team and the manager and expect.. the expected. Results will not always go our way x
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But all you did was go on about is being in the top six? It was myself and others that reminded you that 6th was equal to 11th and also not far from 14/15th. We lost today to a squad inferior to ours at home and they didnt need to try. I admire youre optimism but its getting a bit cringe worthy man. I havent got time to read your post. Maybe see if you can get your poinr accross in fewer words/ bit more succinctly. If you have to right all that, indicates you havent really got a point. Check in Tuesday. Have a goodun utb
 
Ted_DN38416 said:
But all you did was go on about is being in the top six? It was myself and others that reminded you that 6th was equal to 11th and also not far from 14/15th. We lost today to a squad inferior to ours at home and they didnt need to try. I admire youre optimism but its getting a bit cringe worthy man. I havent got time to read your post. Maybe see if you can get your poinr accross in fewer words/ bit more succinctly. If you have to right all that, indicates you havent really got a point. Check in Tuesday. Have a goodun utb
Click to expand...
‘right all that’ - says it all really
 
No Albert Adomah in Newys long list (that I can see)

We have not paid £6m for Payero. I heard $5m and that is very much dependent on progress payments and includes his salary. My guess is that our current budget player limit fee is between £1m and £1.5m at present.

We also had Venezuelan International defender under AK in 2014/15 - he scored in the semi play off.

There was also a loan fee for Vossen, which we had to pay if we did not buy him.

We seemed to have a big squad under AK in 2014/15 and 2015/16. We never really had to put academy and non league players in the first team squad. For example in 2014/15 Ledesma only played one game he usually did not make the match day squad. Our loan players were taken from big teams like Chelsea and Spurs. The bottom line is that AK was better resourced and inherited some decent players starting to enter their peak career time (Friend, Adomah, Ayala, Leadbitter).

Ref Article - some good points about the midfield - playing 2 out and out forwards is a bit of a luxury and leaves us light in midfield. We have been forced to play midfielders in defence and I don't like not having any cover for Bola, especially if we play 4 at the back.
 
Redwurzel said:
No Albert Adomah in Newys long list (that I can see)

We have not paid £6m for Payero. I heard $5m and that is very much dependent on progress payments and includes his salary. My guess is that our current budget player limit fee is between £1m and £1.5m at present.

We also had Venezuelan International defender under AK in 2014/15 - he scored in the semi play off.

There was also a loan fee for Vossen, which we had to pay if we did not buy him.

We seemed to have a big squad under AK in 2014/15 and 2015/16. We never really had to put academy and non league players in the first team squad. For example in 2014/15 Ledesma only played one game he usually did not make the match day squad. Our loan players were taken from big teams like Chelsea and Spurs. The bottom line is that AK was better resourced and inherited some decent players starting to enter their peak career time (Friend, Adomah, Ayala, Leadbitter).

Ref Article - some good points about the midfield - playing 2 out and out forwards is a bit of a luxury and leaves us light in midfield. We have been forced to play midfielders in defence and I don't like not having any cover for Bola, especially if we play 4 at the back.
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I knew I'd dropped a clanger putting Stewart Downing in.. I knew I'd missed someone out. Used Adomah as an example of investment into the squad a few posts earlier tho. I did a breakdown for genuine transfer fees.. might have been on oneboro.. couldn't be bothered with the chew lol

Fernando Amorebieta!!! - completely missed him out

'The bottom line is that AK was better resourced and inherited some decent players starting to enter their peak career time (Friend, Adomah, Ayala, Leadbitter).' - BINGO!
 
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