German and USA Tanks

Germany won't give tanks unless the USA do which is fair enough I think. USA's tanks are expensive beasts and take months of training to use. It's not like giving Ukraine road cars to drive unfortunately.
 
I presume that those running the US military have had many a guffaw at how many of Putin's new toys have been shown up in this conflict. It has demonstrated a clear technology gap between the two.

They are possibly concerned that if an Abrams were sent into battle and captured, they could be reverse engineered and copied by the Russians.
 
The M1 is a very difficult tank. It needs a full support network around it for supply and repair due to its turbine engine. It also has a smooth bore gun which needs training on compare to most tanks having rifled guns…. I doubt we will see M1s in Ukraine

Germany is in a mess. They have been under investing in the armed forces for years and worse off they haven’t been looking after equipment either.

A rumour going around at the start of this war was that they only had 11 serviceable euro fighters… that’s not even enough to run a QRF

Tanks were no different and most had been sent to the manufacturer for refit… but it was common knowledge the word refit was just a smoke screen for mothball as no money was given over for said refit.

The tanks with Rheinmetall are in that bad a state that it would take at least a year to get them ready.

The challengers we are sending (12 plus C and C ) are a bit dusty but they are fit to fight. We have always kept a fighting reserve (albeit a lot smaller these days)

The big story here though is we are sending AS90 as well. Tanks can’t win you a fight. You need the artillery to soften up the area first.

HIMARS is a great system but is vulnerable to attack once it gives its position away. It also takes time to set up and re pack…. You shoot a barrage and retreat.

AS90 can put more rounds in on close range targets and stay in the fight longer. It can also move comfortably around the battle field behind your tanks.

It’s a massive game changer and is the reasons we will be sending up to 24 of these plus support.
 
Acklam_Lad said:
The M1 is a very difficult tank. It needs a full support network around it for supply and repair due to its turbine engine. It also has a smooth bore gun which needs training on compare to most tanks having rifled guns…. I doubt we will see M1s in Ukraine

Germany is in a mess. They have been under investing in the armed forces for years and worse off they haven’t been looking after equipment either.

A rumour going around at the start of this war was that they only had 11 serviceable euro fighters… that’s not even enough to run a QRF

Tanks were no different and most had been sent to the manufacturer for refit… but it was common knowledge the word refit was just a smoke screen for mothball as no money was given over for said refit.

The tanks with Rheinmetall are in that bad a state that it would take at least a year to get them ready.

The challengers we are sending (12 plus C and C ) are a bit dusty but they are fit to fight. We have always kept a fighting reserve (albeit a lot smaller these days)

The big story here though is we are sending AS90 as well. Tanks can’t win you a fight. You need the artillery to soften up the area first.

HIMARS is a great system but is vulnerable to attack once it gives its position away. It also takes time to set up and re pack…. You shoot a barrage and retreat.

AS90 can put more rounds in on close range targets and stay in the fight longer. It can also move comfortably around the battle field behind your tanks.

It’s a massive game changer and is the reasons we will be sending up to 24 of these plus support.
Click to expand...
Wow AL, that is an impressive piece. If he was still alive, you would have given Tom Clancy a good run for his money!
 
if anyone is into 'military hardware' info overload (which I'm not) listen to the daily telegraph daily podcast 'ukraine - the latest'. the level of military detail they go into is bonkers!
 
BoroFur said:
Germany won't give tanks unless the USA do which is fair enough I think. USA's tanks are expensive beasts and take months of training to use. It's not like giving Ukraine road cars to drive unfortunately.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's "fair enough" for me the Germans - seem - to be holding out for a truce & negotiated peace deal, which is just not going to happen..

Holding out supplying the Leopards could have repercussions for their arms industry - with nations deciding they can't risk possible political interference & buy tanks etc from elsewhere, as Poland is doing with their new tanks.

Poland may just supply what Leopards it has, give two fingers to Germany & establish their own defence manufacturers.. which is what they've done with their new South Korean tanks

notesfrompoland.com

First Korean tanks and howitzers arrive in Poland

Poland's president and defence minister welcomed the arrival of the military equipment from South Korea.
notesfrompoland.com notesfrompoland.com
 
I imagine all the heavy weapons systems are a bit of a nightmare to support and run on a battlefield. It's not like having a weekly maintenance schedule on an army camp.

The support network from fuel / maintenance and weapon cleaning etc will be very manpower intensive. They will need a large support network and not just 3-4 operators.

Knowing weapon systems pretty well (all be it 23 years in the Navy). They regularly don't fire or parts break / malfunction. You spend as much time fixing or maintaining them. They will he getting abused daily on the battlefield. I imagine firing well beyond what the 'text book' says.

It's clearly not as easy as saying 'here's 20 tanks' and letting them crack on. They'd be broken down or unable to fire in days.
 
I was half-hearing a discussion on this last night and part of the reason the USA is reticent is the time and logistics of getting them there in sufficient numbers. France doesn't have enough apparently.
 
jeff_potato said:
I presume that those running the US military have had many a guffaw at how many of Putin's new toys have been shown up in this conflict. It has demonstrated a clear technology gap between the two.

They are possibly concerned that if an Abrams were sent into battle and captured, they could be reverse engineered and copied by the Russians.
Click to expand...
It's telling that Russia is buying drones from Iran.
Iran are ahead of Russia in aspects of military technology (albeit with a hell of a lot of assistance from China).
 
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BobUpnDown said:
I don't think it's "fair enough" for me the Germans - seem - to be holding out for a truce & negotiated peace deal, which is just not going to happen..

Holding out supplying the Leopards could have repercussions for their arms industry - with nations deciding they can't risk possible political interference & buy tanks etc from elsewhere, as Poland is doing with their new tanks.

Poland may just supply what Leopards it has, give two fingers to Germany & establish their own defence manufacturers.. which is what they've done with their new South Korean tanks

notesfrompoland.com

First Korean tanks and howitzers arrive in Poland

Poland's president and defence minister welcomed the arrival of the military equipment from South Korea.
notesfrompoland.com notesfrompoland.com
Click to expand...

Nail on the head Bob… the Poles have been looking for a reason to rearm… they have been waiting years and this has been like handing them a golden goose.

They will come out of this as the biggest military power in Europe once all the fighting finishes.

They have been very clever in ordering gear from anyone and everyone in the west and Asia that would supply them. It means the stuff they have ordered is already designed and tested and in mass production.

The first orders are more stop gaps than anything just to swell the ranks. The clever bit is they have insisted on the rest of the orders are to be built or finished in Poland so it grows their GDP and increase their tech knowledge levels from ex soviet era rubbish to western grades.

The main sticking point is cost… but they don’t seem that bothered about that at the moment.

Germany is going to come out of this in one of two ways.

1. They keep their heads in the sand and they can’t even produce a defence force.

2. They get the message and rearm. In all honesty I can’t see this happen under the current government.

France is going to keep its nose in the air, their tech is good but they don’t like to share… they want hard currency…like all dodgy arms dealers

The funny thing in all this is Brand GB… before all this everyone knew our kit was good… but it wasn’t field tested much and although we were happy to share the tech, many others wanted the same kit to do different things.

Now everyone has seen it in action, not only do they want our kit, they also want our input and close relations on the next gen stuff too.
 
Acklam_Lad said:
Nail on the head Bob… the Poles have been looking for a reason to rearm… they have been waiting years and this has been like handing them a golden goose.

They will come out of this as the biggest military power in Europe once all the fighting finishes.

They have been very clever in ordering gear from anyone and everyone in the west and Asia that would supply them. It means the stuff they have ordered is already designed and tested and in mass production.

The first orders are more stop gaps than anything just to swell the ranks. The clever bit is they have insisted on the rest of the orders are to be built or finished in Poland so it grows their GDP and increase their tech knowledge levels from ex soviet era rubbish to western grades.

The main sticking point is cost… but they don’t seem that bothered about that at the moment.

Germany is going to come out of this in one of two ways.

1. They keep their heads in the sand and they can’t even produce a defence force.

2. They get the message and rearm. In all honesty I can’t see this happen under the current government.

France is going to keep its nose in the air, their tech is good but they don’t like to share… they want hard currency…like all dodgy arms dealers

The funny thing in all this is Brand GB… before all this everyone knew our kit was good… but it wasn’t field tested much and although we were happy to share the tech, many others wanted the same kit to do different things.

Now everyone has seen it in action, not only do they want our kit, they also want our input and close relations on the next gen stuff too.
Click to expand...
Do you work for the MOD or something?!? :) Brilliant knowledge.
 
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