Genders

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I don’t care how many genders there are, as ST says, other than in sport. People can identify however they want in day to day life.
Context would have to apply to everyday life.

If you are a male, and decide to identify as a female and enter a female single sex space could you break the law?

Do you think you can identify as what you want as a carer and provide intimate care to an individual?
 
Context would have to apply to everyday life.

If you are a male, and decide to identify as a female and enter a female single sex space could you break the law?

Do you think you can identify as what you want as a carer and provide intimate care to an individual?
Nurses, Male and Female, work intimately with patients to care for them.
Do you object to Nurses of the opposite sex caring for patients of the opposite sex?
Should there be different hospitals for male and female patients?
Should female nurses only be allowed to work with female patients?
Gets complicated doesnt it.
 
What does that mean?

Could you explain what you mean by gender being on a spectrum is a scientific fact?
No problem. Social sciences have proven beyond doubt that gender traits are across a broad spectrum. Gender is to quote our government a “social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth”

That is objectively and visibly true in society. You see it everywhere. It’s undeniable. I don’t see the controversy beyond the manufactured culture war.
 
The importance of the effects of socialisation and the individual social construction of reallity cannot be overstated.
Margaret Mead`s "The Coming of Age in Samoa" is worth a read for those interested in how culture influences psychosexual development.
Margaret Mead was a very important Social Anthropologist, who has made a critical contribution to understanding society, culture and science.
It was an important part of the syllabus for Teachers, Social Workers and those Clinical Practitioners in Medicine and Psychology, particularly during the 1960s and 70s.
Her work has been overtaken since the 1920`s by further studies and research, but it remains relevant to the whole debate about the relationship between culture and psycho-sexual development.

It can be accessed here:

Just a side note;
Margaret Mead also carried out a study of children in New Guinea, identifying the effects of adults on adolescent behaviours, including psyshosexual development and sexuality.
It compliments her first work, quoted above.
 
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A definition is the essential prerquisite in understanding Gender, Sex and Sexuality. If you wish to research further - read on:​

Chapter 12. Gender, Sex, and Sexuality​

Extract:​

12.1. The Difference between Sex and Gender​

When filling out a document such as a job application or school registration form you are often asked to provide your name, address, phone number, birth date, and sex or gender. But have you ever been asked to provide your sex and your gender? As with most people, it may not have occurred to you that sex and gender are not the same. However, sociologists and most other social scientists view sex and gender as conceptually distinct. Sex refers to physical or physiological differences between males and females, including both primary sex characteristics (the reproductive system) and secondary characteristics such as height and muscularity. Gender is a term that refers to social or cultural distinctions associated with being male or female. Gender identity is the extent to which one identifies as being either masculine or feminine (Diamond 2002).

.....................

The dichotomous view of gender (the notion that one is either male or female) is specific to certain cultures and is not universal. In some cultures, gender is viewed as fluid. In the past, some anthropologists used the term berdache to refer to individuals who occasionally or permanently dressed and lived as the opposite gender. The practice has been noted among certain Aboriginal groups (Jacobs, Thomas, and Lang 1997). Samoan culture accepts what they refer to as a “third gender.” Fa’afafine, which translates as “the way of the woman,” is a term used to describe individuals who are born biologically male but embody both masculine and feminine traits. Fa’afafines are considered an important part of Samoan culture. Individuals from other cultures may mislabel them as homosexuals because fa’afafines have a varied sexual life that may include men or women (Poasa 1992).
 
No problem. Social sciences have proven beyond doubt that gender traits are across a broad spectrum. Gender is to quote our government a “social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth”

No problem. Social sciences have proven beyond doubt that gender traits (STEREOTYPES) are across a broad spectrum. Gender is to quote our government a “social construction relating to behaviours and attributes (STEREOTYPES) based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned (OBSERVED) at birth”


To call it a scientific fact is incorrect.

However, if a woman feels that she displays more stereotypes that are considered to be predominantly ‘male’ than ‘female’ then she can say she’s of the male gender, that’s fine (I don’t agree but, whatever) She’s still biologically female though, and she shouldn’t expect others to see her as male, nor should she expect to be treated as though she were male. Same applies with men displaying more stereotypes considered to be more ‘female’.

The fact that gender is based entirely on stereotypes, and based on the fact that no one person displays 100% ‘male’ or 100% ‘female’ stereotypes/characteristics, then every person on Earth could be considered to be non-binary under the definition of gender.

It wasn’t so long ago that society was aiming to move away from reductive stereotypes, yet now people are basing whole identities on them.
 
No problem. Social sciences have proven beyond doubt that gender traits (STEREOTYPES) are across a broad spectrum. Gender is to quote our government a “social construction relating to behaviours and attributes (STEREOTYPES) based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned (OBSERVED) at birth”


To call it a scientific fact is incorrect.

However, if a woman feels that she displays more stereotypes that are considered to be predominantly ‘male’ than ‘female’ then she can say she’s of the male gender, that’s fine (I don’t agree but, whatever) She’s still biologically female though, and she shouldn’t expect others to see her as male, nor should she expect to be treated as though she were male. Same applies with men displaying more stereotypes considered to be more ‘female’.

The fact that gender is based entirely on stereotypes, and based on the fact that no one person displays 100% ‘male’ or 100% ‘female’ stereotypes/characteristics, then every person on Earth could be considered to be non-binary under the definition of gender.

It wasn’t so long ago that society was aiming to move away from reductive stereotypes, yet now people are basing whole identities on them.
It is a scientific fact. That’s not incorrect. I still don’t understand the problem anyway. Why are you bothered?
 

A definition is the essential prerquisite in understanding Gender, Sex and Sexuality. If you wish to research further - read on:​

Chapter 12. Gender, Sex, and Sexuality​

Extract:​

12.1. The Difference between Sex and Gender​

When filling out a document such as a job application or school registration form you are often asked to provide your name, address, phone number, birth date, and sex or gender. But have you ever been asked to provide your sex and your gender? As with most people, it may not have occurred to you that sex and gender are not the same. However, sociologists and most other social scientists view sex and gender as conceptually distinct. Sex refers to physical or physiological differences between males and females, including both primary sex characteristics (the reproductive system) and secondary characteristics such as height and muscularity. Gender is a term that refers to social or cultural distinctions associated with being male or female. Gender identity is the extent to which one identifies as being either masculine or feminine (Diamond 2002).

.....................

The dichotomous view of gender (the notion that one is either male or female) is specific to certain cultures and is not universal. In some cultures, gender is viewed as fluid. In the past, some anthropologists used the term berdache to refer to individuals who occasionally or permanently dressed and lived as the opposite gender. The practice has been noted among certain Aboriginal groups (Jacobs, Thomas, and Lang 1997). Samoan culture accepts what they refer to as a “third gender.” Fa’afafine, which translates as “the way of the woman,” is a term used to describe individuals who are born biologically male but embody both masculine and feminine traits. Fa’afafines are considered an important part of Samoan culture. Individuals from other cultures may mislabel them as homosexuals because fa’afafines have a varied sexual life that may include men or women (Poasa 1992).


‘However, sociologists and most other social scientists view sex and gender as conceptually distinct.’

‘The dichotomous view of gender (the notion that one is either male or female)…’


This a perfect example of someone tying themselves in knots to try to prove their theory.
Male and female are terminologies used in sex, not gender. Gender uses the terminologies man and woman.
 
‘However, sociologists and most other social scientists view sex and gender as conceptually distinct.’

‘The dichotomous view of gender (the notion that one is either male or female)…’


This a perfect example of someone tying themselves in knots to try to prove their theory.
Male and female are terminologies used in sex, not gender. Gender uses the terminologies man and woman.

I ask again. Why does it bother you? I genuinely don’t understand.
 
It is a scientific fact. That’s not incorrect. I still don’t understand the problem anyway. Why are you bothered?

I’ll just say women’s and girl’s safety, privacy, dignity, and fairness to compete, and leave it at that. Some people will agree that it’s a problem and some won’t and the last time I elaborated on this subject the thread had to be deleted and some people were upset by it. I don’t mean any disrespect or want to upset anyone, so I’ll leave it there.

Thanks for the interaction though, I appreciate it. 👍🏻
 
I’ll just say women’s and girl’s safety, privacy, dignity, and fairness to compete, and leave it at that. Some people will agree that it’s a problem and some won’t and the last time I elaborated on this subject the thread had to be deleted and some people were upset by it. I don’t mean any disrespect or want to upset anyone, so I’ll leave it there.

Thanks for the interaction though, I appreciate it. 👍🏻
Ok. I’m not upset and am happy to discuss and engage on it. It’s important to talk.

To answer those couple of points, I don’t think that’s the same thing really. And we have common ground here.

Sport is unresolved. Completely agree. I don’t see an easy solution to that.

Safety, privacy and dignity is a potential problem. But it assumes that predators will take advantage of this tolerance. Fair. But they’re predators. They don’t need this to be predatory. It’s a tiny proportion of a tiny proportion. When it happens like that rapist going to a female jail it’s such an obvious solution and sense prevailed. I don’t see it as a major issue really.
 
Ok. I’m not upset and am happy to discuss and engage on it. It’s important to talk.

To answer those couple of points, I don’t think that’s the same thing really. And we have common ground here.

Sport is unresolved. Completely agree. I don’t see an easy solution to that.

Safety, privacy and dignity is a potential problem. But it assumes that predators will take advantage of this tolerance. Fair. But they’re predators. They don’t need this to be predatory. It’s a tiny proportion of a tiny proportion. When it happens like that rapist going to a female jail it’s such an obvious solution and sense prevailed. I don’t see it as a major issue really.


Thanks BobendBert. I agree with the points above, and I absolutely agree that it’s a tiny proportion of a tiny proportion. Being a man I’m lucky that if a biological woman walks into the men’s toilets while I’m in there I’d have nothing to fear, although admittedly I would feel very uncomfortable, however whenever a biological man walks into a woman’s toilet the women in there can never know whether that biological man is part of the tiny portion of a tiny portion until they’ve left the toilets unharmed.
 
‘However, sociologists and most other social scientists view sex and gender as conceptually distinct.’

‘The dichotomous view of gender (the notion that one is either male or female)…’


This a perfect example of someone tying themselves in knots to try to prove their theory.
Male and female are terminologies used in sex, not gender. Gender uses the terminologies man and woman.
Howard Becker conducted research on the concept of "deviance" and "deviant behaviours" [Becker, H. S. (1963). Outsiders: Studies in the sociology of deviance. Free Press Glencoe.] which focused on how subjective "Societal Norms" are applied as a means of defining "deviance" and contemporaneously, is sometimes known as "othering". This concept is particulalry important in "labelling theory" - which defines a person according to someone else`s definition. In other words, the person is proscribed various traits by externally imposed "norms". I might suggest it follows the philosophical line to Descartes "Cogito Ergo Sum" - "I think, therefore I am". Defining others by what we think are accepted norms of behaviour is to deny the individual. I suggest this is particularly applicable to the current discussion.

Its may be useful to digest the main tennants of the text in order to have an informed debate.
The notion that people are deliberately disecting and gathering information, soley to reflect their own beliefs and prognosis, is something which stems from fear of the unknown and our unwillingness and inability to challenge ourselves and our own perceptions of "reallity".
 
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When it happens like that rapist going to a female jail it’s such an obvious solution and sense prevailed. I don’t see it as a major issue really.


Just to address this point. It is a major issue because to me and you, and a whole lot of other people, we know that this person claimed to be trans so they could go to a women’s prison. However, what you’ve stated in this part of your post will see you classed as being transphobic. There are people saying that he should still be referred to as a woman. The whole concept of self ID is ‘acceptance without question’, if he says he’s a woman, then he’s a woman. That’s why something as straightforward as this is a major issue. 👍🏻
 
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