England v Belgium a real test for southgates England

I like him a lot and he seemed to avoid the classic England manager pitfall of picking their favourites over form and slotting square pegs into round holes.

My concern is that it looks like he is now doing both to an extent.

It's funny though I'd genuinely rather have Neil managing us than Gareth, to be honest I'd rather have Neil managing England. 🤣
I'd question his GK choice, Pickford's form hasn't been great, but then he hasn't dropped clangers for England and he has better kicking than other options.

Maguire is off form but that's largely down to the mess that is United, he's been fine for England, in fact indispensable. I think he picked Henderson because he felt it was a really inexperienced team rather than picking a favourite. We are actually in a bit of a transition period again in certain areas of the pitch. From his first squads the only remaining players are:

- Kane-key player
- Rashford-key player
- Sterling-key player
- Pickford
- Walker-who ideally would be phased out over the next 18 months
- Dier-squad man
- Henderson-again got maybe 18 months as an international left.

Out of his initial 23 man squads only 3 players who are now safe
 
I'd question his GK choice, Pickford's form hasn't been great, but then he hasn't dropped clangers for England and he has better kicking than other options.

Maguire is off form but that's largely down to the mess that is United, he's been fine for England, in fact indispensable. I think he picked Henderson because he felt it was a really inexperienced team rather than picking a favourite. We are actually in a bit of a transition period again in certain areas of the pitch. From his first squads the only remaining players are:

- Kane-key player
- Rashford-key player
- Sterling-key player
- Pickford
- Walker-who ideally would be phased out over the next 18 months
- Dier-squad man
- Henderson-again got maybe 18 months as an international left.

Out of his initial 23 man squads only 3 players who are now safe

Why has Henderson only got 18 months left as an international? He’s our best central midfielder by a mile
 
Why has Henderson only got 18 months left as an international? He’s our best central midfielder by a mile
because he'll be 32 and you don't tend to get many players playing regular international football for a top 8 team at that age in midfield. He might be first choice in 18 months, but that would be indicative of a lack of talented alternatives rather than his ability to continue playing at that level. More than likely he will retire to concentrate on club football or be in and out the side.

Paul Ince finished as an England player at 32, Milner 30, Batty 31, Scott Parker 32. Lampard and Gerrard went on too long at 33 and 34 and we suffered then and after having lost all experience in our midfield.
 
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Agree with that block I'd actually move to the Liverpool formation and use Henderson like he's used by Klopp.

For me dier, Pickford, Maguire, trippier, rice (specially if Henderson is playing), walker. Shouldn't be in the team. They are all part of the Southgate crew though.

And I'd not consider Rashford a key player Marty.

Really controversial.. I'd not consider Kane essential (I admit that is probably a bonkers position to take).
 
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Great result, not a great performance.
Good to top the table at halfway.

Hopefully Sterling is back next month.
 
because he'll be 32 and you don't tend to get many players playing regular international football for a top 8 team at that age in midfield. He might be first choice in 18 months, but that would be indicative of a lack of talented alternatives rather than his ability to continue playing at that level. More than likely he will retire to concentrate on club football or be in and out the side.

Paul Ince finished as an England player at 32, Milner 30, Batty 31, Scott Parker 32. Lampard and Gerrard went on too long at 33 and 34 and we suffered then and after having lost all experience in our midfield.

I disagree, I think Henderson is our main Man in midfield for at least the next 3 tournaments, he is valuable as he can be a no 8 or a 6 and his leaderships skills are second to none. Would be shocked if he’s not in the squad in 2024.
 
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I like him too. His stock is high because he got England to the World Cup semi final which was to be fair a fine achievement. In reality it was an easy passage wasn’t it? . And a record of 3 wins 1 draw and 3 defeats.

His selection is too conservative for me. It’s easy to play these exciting g youngsters in friendlies but when it comes to tournaments he reverts to type.
 
I think Southgate has been a breath of fresh air for England; players want to play for their country again, he selects players on form, not reputation and isn't afraid to select young players too.

He also seems to get them performing for their country and playing with confidence, a problem that has dogged some of the top English talent for generations.
 
Well getting shot by that sniper yesterday must have shortened his career a bit...
Hundred percent agree best all round English central midfielder. (y)

So you think it was a good thing for him to hit the deck like he was shot in the penalty box? I thought it was only them 'foreigners' who did that, not our pure golden English boys.

If he's our best midfielder we're in real trouble.
 
So you think it was a good thing for him to hit the deck like he was shot in the penalty box? I thought it was only them 'foreigners' who did that, not our pure golden English boys.

If he's our best midfielder we're in real trouble.

He is by far and away our best central midfielder. He is the captain of the premier league winners and won the champions league the year before. Who’s better? Declan Rice? Kalvin Phillips?
 
Other than Grealish did he refuse to pick any super talented players that were available? Remember he would have been throwing Grealish straight into a qualifier with no games to learn. Let's also not forget that although Grealish has talent, he doesn't always apply and doesn't have the healthiest temperament.

Against Denmark he was forced to play Coady, Gomez and Dier as his CBs. None of them would be in his first choice CBs (Walker-Keane-Maguire). He was also missing Chilwell from defence. So going a bit conservative wasn't an issue in that game. We needed to not lose and we didn't. We got our 6th consecutive cleansheet with a scratch defence and playing part of the game a man down and we should have won it late on but Kane was cleared off the line. If Walker hadn't been red carded, I think we would have won. You can't blame Southgate for a stupid moment from a defender.

Southgate has won 21 drawn 6 and lost 6 in competitive games. He gets it right more than not, and he gets it right a lot more often than any recent england managers.

The losses away to Czechs was disappointing, Netherlands away (no shame), Spain (no shame), Belgium twice (he learned from it today) and Croatia.

The idea that he is too defensive is nonsense too, scored:
7 - once
6 - twice
5 - three times
4 - three times
3 - three times
only failed to score in 9 out of 45 games, and 6 of those we still drew.

He's the best manager we have had since Ramsey in terms of results.
In my opinion he's not making the most of the talent we have. As someone else said, far too conservative and picks players from 'big' clubs first. If Dier played for West Brom, he'd be nowhere near the England squad.
 
Agree with that block I'd actually move to the Liverpool formation and use Henderson like he's used by Klopp.

For me dier, Pickford, Maguire, trippier, rice (specially if Henderson is playing), walker. Shouldn't be in the team. They are all part of the Southgate crew though.

And I'd not consider Rashford a key player Marty.

Really controversial.. I'd not consider Kane essential (I admit that is probably a bonkers position to take).
Pickford is in their for a specific purpose playing out from the back, if Pope or Henderson can improve that I think Pickford will lose his spot.
Maguire, he's the only physical player we have at CB
Trippier, he's only covering LB for Chillwell and RB for TAA. He's a decent squad player to have
Rice....agreed, I haven't seen enough to make me think he is worth a starting spot
Rashford, if fit and on form is definitely in the mix
 
Other than Grealish did he refuse to pick any super talented players that were available? Remember he would have been throwing Grealish straight into a qualifier with no games to learn. Let's also not forget that although Grealish has talent, he doesn't always apply and doesn't have the healthiest temperament.

Against Denmark he was forced to play Coady, Gomez and Dier as his CBs. None of them would be in his first choice CBs (Walker-Keane-Maguire). He was also missing Chilwell from defence. So going a bit conservative wasn't an issue in that game. We needed to not lose and we didn't. We got our 6th consecutive cleansheet with a scratch defence and playing part of the game a man down and we should have won it late on but Kane was cleared off the line. If Walker hadn't been red carded, I think we would have won. You can't blame Southgate for a stupid moment from a defender.

Southgate has won 21 drawn 6 and lost 6 in competitive games. He gets it right more than not, and he gets it right a lot more often than any recent england managers.

The losses away to Czechs was disappointing, Netherlands away (no shame), Spain (no shame), Belgium twice (he learned from it today) and Croatia.

The idea that he is too defensive is nonsense too, scored:
7 - once
6 - twice
5 - three times
4 - three times
3 - three times
only failed to score in 9 out of 45 games, and 6 of those we still drew.

He's the best manager we have had since Ramsey in terms of results.

Under Ramsey we had the best goalkeeper in the world, the best centre half, probably the fittest footballer in the world in Alan Ball, the best attacking midfielder in Bobby Charlton and other than Pele, probably as good a goal scorer as there was in Jimmy Greaves.

We have since had managers who could call on Shilton, Clemence, Woods, Seaman and Martyn in goal. I’m not sure any of the keepers Southgate can call on are even as good as James, Hart, Robinson, or any of another half a dozen in the 70's.

At centre half none of the players Southgate can pick from come close to Moore, Charlton, Tony Adams, Terry Butcher, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Sol Campbell or Des Walker. All these players were immense. We could easily add Woodgate (8 caps) and Ledley King (21 caps) into that class, it's just injuries that stopped them. I don't think they come close to Southgate himself, nor players like Mark Wright, Martin Keown, Steve Bould (2 caps), Phil Thompson, Tommy Smith, Emlyn Hughes, Kevin Beattie (9 caps), Dave Watson, Roy McFarland, Colin Todd, Steve Perryman (1 cap), Gary Mabbutt, Ugo (4 caps), Gary Pallister (22) and Steve Bruce (0). We have not had a shortage in this position.

We are currently quite strong at full back/wing back, Trent Alexander Arnold is the best in the world imo, but when you look at this position from the 1970's you wouldn't say the current crop is significantly ahead of Kenny Sansom, Stuart Pearce and Ashley Cole on the left (with back up from Graeme Le Saux, Wayne Bridge, Terry Cooper, Leighton Baines, (Alan Kennedy and Nigel Winterburn only got 2 caps each), nor Phil Neal, Viv Anderson, Gary Neville, Lee Dixon, Gary Stevens, Mick Mills at right back.

In midfield England managers in the 70's and 80's were able to pick players from teams that were dominant in Europe and competitive thereafter. England managers had immense, world class players like Alan Ball, Bryan Robson, Glen Hoddle, Gascoigne and Ince, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard and Beckham. Do any of the current crop even come close to Ray Wilkins, Ray Kennedy, Terry McDermott, Alan Mullery, Trevor Brooking, Colin Bell, David Platt, Tony Currie, Steve McMahon, Stan Bowles, Rod Marsh, Trevor Steven? Jimmy Case never won an England cap, Lee Bowyer (1), Paul Bracewell only 3.

In terms of wingers England have had plenty to choose from who to my mind were better than we have now. John Barnes, Chris Waddle and Steve Coppell were, like Beckham, world class. Trevor Steven, Steve McManaman, Peter Barnes, Darren Anderton, Francis Lee, Alan Devonshire, Spike Armstrong, all would probably get a call by Southgate now if they were around wouldn't they?

Up front is a strong area for Southgate, but is it any stronger let alone significantly stronger than the choices available to Southgates predecessors?

Kane is world class, but is he significantly better, or even better at all than Hurst, the only man to score a hat-trick in the World Cup Final, Kevin Keegan the two time European Footballer of the Year, Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer the all time record goal scorer in the PL by some distance, Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney who were both sensational ? Are the other forwards now better than the strength in depth comparatively for previous managers? Maybe in the mid 70's, but are Rashford and co better than Trevor Francis, Mick Channon, Tony Woodcock, Teddy Sheringham, Peter Beardsley? Ian Wright only started 17 times for England, Robbie Fowler 26 caps in total, Les Ferdinand (17), Andy Cole (15), Malcolm MacDonald (14) , Stan Collymore (3 caps), David Hirst (3), Chris Sutton (1 cap). Matt Le Tissier started 3 games for England!

When we criticise Southgate surely we need to bear in mind his achievements compared to predecessors who for the most part were not managerial mugs. Don Revie, Bobby Robson, Terry Venables, Glen Hoddle, Sven, Capello and Roy Hodgson had all shown themselves to be top coaches here and internationally, McClaren too, Greenwood was solid and don't forget the contribution of Dave Sexton and Don Howe. They all seem to have been dealt a better hand than Southgate too, when you look at the calibre of players. He is arguably marginally stronger in a couple of positions on the pitch, arguably, but he is definitely weaker in many other key areas - GK, Centre Half and Centre Midfield.

Even when it comes to leadership, is there anyone in the current squad better than Moore, Robson, Lineker, Butcher, Shilton, Terry, Keegan, Ince, Beckham, Neville or Shearer? Kane and Henderson are good, but not in their class imo.

So it may be luck, but it is an extraordinary amount if so. I think it is because Southgate is a fantastic leader, intelligent tactician, but most of all he has got them to add up to more than the sum of their parts through teamwork and team spirit. As good as Robson and Venables were, only Ramsey can really be said to have done that before. He was criticised too right up until we got to the 1966 final. Even then, not playing Greaves was controversial.

Imagine if Southgate could just call on a couple of the players mentioned, between the sticks or at centre half, a dominant midfielder or a creative player, all of which we used to have an abundance of or we didn't pick. Instead, he has brought youngsters through, kept their ego's down and built on style and habits instilled at the U-21, U20, U19 and U17 levels. If that was obvious and easy, how come no one else has managed it?
 
Under Ramsey we had the best goalkeeper in the world, the best centre half, probably the fittest footballer in the world in Alan Ball, the best attacking midfielder in Bobby Charlton and other than Pele, probably as good a goal scorer as there was in Jimmy Greaves.

We have since had managers who could call on Shilton, Clemence, Woods, Seaman and Martyn in goal. I’m not sure any of the keepers Southgate can call on are even as good as James, Hart, Robinson, or any of another half a dozen in the 70's.

At centre half none of the players Southgate can pick from come close to Moore, Charlton, Tony Adams, Terry Butcher, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Sol Campbell or Des Walker. All these players were immense. We could easily add Woodgate (8 caps) and Ledley King (21 caps) into that class, it's just injuries that stopped them. I don't think they come close to Southgate himself, nor players like Mark Wright, Martin Keown, Steve Bould (2 caps), Phil Thompson, Tommy Smith, Emlyn Hughes, Kevin Beattie (9 caps), Dave Watson, Roy McFarland, Colin Todd, Steve Perryman (1 cap), Gary Mabbutt, Ugo (4 caps), Gary Pallister (22) and Steve Bruce (0). We have not had a shortage in this position.

We are currently quite strong at full back/wing back, Trent Alexander Arnold is the best in the world imo, but when you look at this position from the 1970's you wouldn't say the current crop is significantly ahead of Kenny Sansom, Stuart Pearce and Ashley Cole on the left (with back up from Graeme Le Saux, Wayne Bridge, Terry Cooper, Leighton Baines, (Alan Kennedy and Nigel Winterburn only got 2 caps each), nor Phil Neal, Viv Anderson, Gary Neville, Lee Dixon, Gary Stevens, Mick Mills at right back.

In midfield England managers in the 70's and 80's were able to pick players from teams that were dominant in Europe and competitive thereafter. England managers had immense, world class players like Alan Ball, Bryan Robson, Glen Hoddle, Gascoigne and Ince, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard and Beckham. Do any of the current crop even come close to Ray Wilkins, Ray Kennedy, Terry McDermott, Alan Mullery, Trevor Brooking, Colin Bell, David Platt, Tony Currie, Steve McMahon, Stan Bowles, Rod Marsh, Trevor Steven? Jimmy Case never won an England cap, Lee Bowyer (1), Paul Bracewell only 3.

In terms of wingers England have had plenty to choose from who to my mind were better than we have now. John Barnes, Chris Waddle and Steve Coppell were, like Beckham, world class. Trevor Steven, Steve McManaman, Peter Barnes, Darren Anderton, Francis Lee, Alan Devonshire, Spike Armstrong, all would probably get a call by Southgate now if they were around wouldn't they?

Up front is a strong area for Southgate, but is it any stronger let alone significantly stronger than the choices available to Southgates predecessors?

Kane is world class, but is he significantly better, or even better at all than Hurst, the only man to score a hat-trick in the World Cup Final, Kevin Keegan the two time European Footballer of the Year, Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer the all time record goal scorer in the PL by some distance, Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney who were both sensational ? Are the other forwards now better than the strength in depth comparatively for previous managers? Maybe in the mid 70's, but are Rashford and co better than Trevor Francis, Mick Channon, Tony Woodcock, Teddy Sheringham, Peter Beardsley? Ian Wright only started 17 times for England, Robbie Fowler 26 caps in total, Les Ferdinand (17), Andy Cole (15), Malcolm MacDonald (14) , Stan Collymore (3 caps), David Hirst (3), Chris Sutton (1 cap). Matt Le Tissier started 3 games for England!

When we criticise Southgate surely we need to bear in mind his achievements compared to predecessors who for the most part were not managerial mugs. Don Revie, Bobby Robson, Terry Venables, Glen Hoddle, Sven, Capello and Roy Hodgson had all shown themselves to be top coaches here and internationally, McClaren too, Greenwood was solid and don't forget the contribution of Dave Sexton and Don Howe. They all seem to have been dealt a better hand than Southgate too, when you look at the calibre of players. He is arguably marginally stronger in a couple of positions on the pitch, arguably, but he is definitely weaker in many other key areas - GK, Centre Half and Centre Midfield.

Even when it comes to leadership, is there anyone in the current squad better than Moore, Robson, Lineker, Butcher, Shilton, Terry, Keegan, Ince, Beckham, Neville or Shearer? Kane and Henderson are good, but not in their class imo.

So it may be luck, but it is an extraordinary amount if so. I think it is because Southgate is a fantastic leader, intelligent tactician, but most of all he has got them to add up to more than the sum of their parts through teamwork and team spirit. As good as Robson and Venables were, only Ramsey can really be said to have done that before. He was criticised too right up until we got to the 1966 final. Even then, not playing Greaves was controversial.

Imagine if Southgate could just call on a couple of the players mentioned, between the sticks or at centre half, a dominant midfielder or a creative player, all of which we used to have an abundance of or we didn't pick. Instead, he has brought youngsters through, kept their ego's down and built on style and habits instilled at the U-21, U20, U19 and U17 levels. If that was obvious and easy, how come no one else has managed it?
Yeah but Cardiff ...
 
Under Ramsey we had the best goalkeeper in the world, the best centre half, probably the fittest footballer in the world in Alan Ball, the best attacking midfielder in Bobby Charlton and other than Pele, probably as good a goal scorer as there was in Jimmy Greaves.

We have since had managers who could call on Shilton, Clemence, Woods, Seaman and Martyn in goal. I’m not sure any of the keepers Southgate can call on are even as good as James, Hart, Robinson, or any of another half a dozen in the 70's.

At centre half none of the players Southgate can pick from come close to Moore, Charlton, Tony Adams, Terry Butcher, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Sol Campbell or Des Walker. All these players were immense. We could easily add Woodgate (8 caps) and Ledley King (21 caps) into that class, it's just injuries that stopped them. I don't think they come close to Southgate himself, nor players like Mark Wright, Martin Keown, Steve Bould (2 caps), Phil Thompson, Tommy Smith, Emlyn Hughes, Kevin Beattie (9 caps), Dave Watson, Roy McFarland, Colin Todd, Steve Perryman (1 cap), Gary Mabbutt, Ugo (4 caps), Gary Pallister (22) and Steve Bruce (0). We have not had a shortage in this position.

We are currently quite strong at full back/wing back, Trent Alexander Arnold is the best in the world imo, but when you look at this position from the 1970's you wouldn't say the current crop is significantly ahead of Kenny Sansom, Stuart Pearce and Ashley Cole on the left (with back up from Graeme Le Saux, Wayne Bridge, Terry Cooper, Leighton Baines, (Alan Kennedy and Nigel Winterburn only got 2 caps each), nor Phil Neal, Viv Anderson, Gary Neville, Lee Dixon, Gary Stevens, Mick Mills at right back.

In midfield England managers in the 70's and 80's were able to pick players from teams that were dominant in Europe and competitive thereafter. England managers had immense, world class players like Alan Ball, Bryan Robson, Glen Hoddle, Gascoigne and Ince, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard and Beckham. Do any of the current crop even come close to Ray Wilkins, Ray Kennedy, Terry McDermott, Alan Mullery, Trevor Brooking, Colin Bell, David Platt, Tony Currie, Steve McMahon, Stan Bowles, Rod Marsh, Trevor Steven? Jimmy Case never won an England cap, Lee Bowyer (1), Paul Bracewell only 3.

In terms of wingers England have had plenty to choose from who to my mind were better than we have now. John Barnes, Chris Waddle and Steve Coppell were, like Beckham, world class. Trevor Steven, Steve McManaman, Peter Barnes, Darren Anderton, Francis Lee, Alan Devonshire, Spike Armstrong, all would probably get a call by Southgate now if they were around wouldn't they?

Up front is a strong area for Southgate, but is it any stronger let alone significantly stronger than the choices available to Southgates predecessors?

Kane is world class, but is he significantly better, or even better at all than Hurst, the only man to score a hat-trick in the World Cup Final, Kevin Keegan the two time European Footballer of the Year, Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer the all time record goal scorer in the PL by some distance, Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney who were both sensational ? Are the other forwards now better than the strength in depth comparatively for previous managers? Maybe in the mid 70's, but are Rashford and co better than Trevor Francis, Mick Channon, Tony Woodcock, Teddy Sheringham, Peter Beardsley? Ian Wright only started 17 times for England, Robbie Fowler 26 caps in total, Les Ferdinand (17), Andy Cole (15), Malcolm MacDonald (14) , Stan Collymore (3 caps), David Hirst (3), Chris Sutton (1 cap). Matt Le Tissier started 3 games for England!

When we criticise Southgate surely we need to bear in mind his achievements compared to predecessors who for the most part were not managerial mugs. Don Revie, Bobby Robson, Terry Venables, Glen Hoddle, Sven, Capello and Roy Hodgson had all shown themselves to be top coaches here and internationally, McClaren too, Greenwood was solid and don't forget the contribution of Dave Sexton and Don Howe. They all seem to have been dealt a better hand than Southgate too, when you look at the calibre of players. He is arguably marginally stronger in a couple of positions on the pitch, arguably, but he is definitely weaker in many other key areas - GK, Centre Half and Centre Midfield.

Even when it comes to leadership, is there anyone in the current squad better than Moore, Robson, Lineker, Butcher, Shilton, Terry, Keegan, Ince, Beckham, Neville or Shearer? Kane and Henderson are good, but not in their class imo.

So it may be luck, but it is an extraordinary amount if so. I think it is because Southgate is a fantastic leader, intelligent tactician, but most of all he has got them to add up to more than the sum of their parts through teamwork and team spirit. As good as Robson and Venables were, only Ramsey can really be said to have done that before. He was criticised too right up until we got to the 1966 final. Even then, not playing Greaves was controversial.

Imagine if Southgate could just call on a couple of the players mentioned, between the sticks or at centre half, a dominant midfielder or a creative player, all of which we used to have an abundance of or we didn't pick. Instead, he has brought youngsters through, kept their ego's down and built on style and habits instilled at the U-21, U20, U19 and U17 levels. If that was obvious and easy, how come no one else has managed it?

It's not just about the individuals though. It's a team game, not a game where you just select the best 11 players. The lesson of trying to shoehorn Gerrard, Lamport and Scholes into the same team still hasn't been learned. The 1966 World Cup team is a case in point. There were quite a few players who (before the tournament started) would have been regarded as certainties to play for England. Greaves, Connelly, Armfield, Flowers, Paine and Eastham were all omitted. The only player regarded as best in the world was Wilson. But a collection of lesser individuals proved to be a better team than a medley of stars.

Who knows why Southgate is making such strange selection - but maybe he's trying to find the balance.
 
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