Electricity Standing Charges. N.E amongst the highest

r00fie1 said:
I concur with your sentiments about the inadequacy of many companies involved and that "one big pot" [managed centrally] would be more efficient and preferable, but it cant explain why a concentrated urban area like Birmingham/Wolverhampton/Coventry/Walsall/Dudley is dearer than London [for example]. I suspect the foreign-owned private generation and distribution companies are ripping us off. There is always the question about where renewable energy, comes into the equation? (y)
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More Nuclear and more biomass in the West Midlands, which aren't cheap and less wind, less solar which are cheap? West mids further from the interconnections too, so more expensive/ more losses?

London is a lot more population-dense too so less volts drop/ more efficient transmission, has less distance to travel. Plus the interconnections they use in London, come from France who have a lot to export (and it's nearby/ relatively efficient), which I expect is probably a much better rate than what we're getting in the North East from the Norweigan interconnector. Energy from Norway is mostly renewable but mostly hydropower, it's clean and cheap, but the cable from Norway to England wasn't and it's probably going to lose a hell of a lot of energy along the way.

There will be ripping off going on too mind!


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I literally did the maths which showed an average user in north east pays less on their bill than an equivalent user in London and we are still saying it's based on how areas vote?

Like we are better off financially. Quick; arm the militia.
 
ThatFragranceGuy said:
I literally did the maths which showed an average user in north east pays less on their bill than an equivalent user in London and we are still saying it's based on how areas vote?

Like we are better off financially. Quick; arm the militia.
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You gotta show you working, surely.
 
Laughing said:
You gotta show you working, surely.
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unit rates/standing charges are in the URL I posted and the figure are below.
ThatFragranceGuy said:

Unit rates also differ by area, and we have lower unit rates typically. Example above of my old supplier

I'd rather have lower unit rates than standing charges tbf as standing charges are fixed rates and unit rates escalate with usage, but it will largely balance itself out
North east using 3731 units (the average) will cost £1064.45, someone in London £1164.45 so bang on £100 more

Standing charge north east £200.45
London £135.92

Difference £64.53 less. So someone in London pays £100 more for their elec and £64.53 less for their SC

Hardly the north being ripped off imo
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ThatFragranceGuy said:
I literally did the maths which showed an average user in north east pays less on their bill than an equivalent user in London and we are still saying it's based on how areas vote?

Like we are better off financially. Quick; arm the militia.
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I was wondering that, the standing charge difference from like 30p to 50p is like £6 a month. That standing charge aspect is far less important than people having the cheapest rate, or a rate which is more suitable to them, like cheap overnight tariff etc.

After giving it a bit more thought, if we're getting cheaper rates on usage in the North East (I've not checked, but you have done your research on that), that interconnector from Norway may be a cheap supply, but the increased standing charge is to pay for the cable over a long duration.

I suppose our Nuclear is from Hartlepool Power Station too, which is old, so would have been built cheaply compared to what measures we need to take with new reactors.

I note Hartlepool is down to be decommissioned in 2024, and wonder if that will now get put back, so we can get off gas easier. It looks like Labour had approved plans for a new reactor in Hartlepool in 2009, so we may end up with two (if they use a different location), or at least the old one running until the new one is built/ side by side on the same site.
 
Laughing said:
I saw that tfg. How are you calculating that the overall cost is cheaper in the north east? What's the average kW unit usage per day? I have no idea.
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I will probably use about 7000kW of electricity, and that's with an EV, a small amount of solar and an electric oven/ induction hob.

I don't know how that fits into the average but will probably end up the average once everyone moves to EV's and electric appliances.

Once we get the renewables situation sorted out and get off gas then we might all end up with heat pumps and/ or electric boilers a long way down the line. We should in theory only get an electric bill, and that bill won't have any electricity generated via gas, that's gonna be 10-15 years away mind, I imagine.

This is partially the reason I don't want us nationalising gas/ gas production, as the aim is to get rid of it (apparently), it would be a self-defeating purchase.
 
Andy_W said:
Might be something daft to do with volts drop/ increased resistance and the grid, the further you go, the more the voltage drop/ resitance and the more losses to heat and the likes. Will also be to do with what areas are fed by which production they're closest to.

The North East is like 23% nuclear and 36% interconnections (imported electric) at the minute, and they're both going to be more expensive than any other method of production.

London for example is 50% gas at the minute, which is cheap (still, comparatively), only 11% Nuclear and 4% interconnectors.

Local DNO's will buy from the producers at whatever they sell it for (which is different), and then this gets sold to the suppliers, who then knock that on the bills.

It could be a lot worse up here actually, seems like the standing charge is only like £6 a month more for up here compared to London, despite us using the much more expensive electricity.

We should all be using the same supplies as one big pot, but it won't work like that, as there are so many companies involved, all with their own cable networks.

Gas is different, as it's all National Grid/ Cadent for the main transmission from the top of Scotland down to the south of England (plus some from Teesside and Humberside) and they charge the same flat gas rate out, no matter what, as what they buy is at a rate set by the market (similar to oil price per barrel).
Gas also doesn't suffer the same losses over distance, no losses to heat and the high pressure/ intermediate pressure and medium pressure pipelines are very well looked after, and they're very protective about them. It's only the localised low-pressure mains which nobody gives a toss about.
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No, standing charges have nothing to do with generation sources they are dictated by the cost of the transmission infrastructure in the various regions.
Our p/kWh prices for electricity are being driven entirely by the astronomical price of gas because that's how our electricity market works. Hence we, the consumers, are seeing no benefits at all from low cost renewables.
In fact National Grid have been suggesting that electricity prices should be locally traded as this would lead to cheaper consumer prices for many more rural areas and leave high demand areas to carry the can for their reliance on gas fired generation.
Anyway you look at it our wholesale and retail energy markets are utterly broken and need radical reform or nationalisation.
 
chickenrunner said:
No, standing charges have nothing to do with generation sources they are dictated by the cost of the transmission infrastructure in the various regions.
Our p/kWh prices for electricity are being driven entirely by the astronomical price of gas because that's how our electricity market works. Hence we, the consumers, are seeing no benefits at all from low cost renewables.
In fact National Grid have been suggesting that electricity prices should be locally traded as this would lead to cheaper consumer prices for many more rural areas and leave high demand areas to carry the can for their reliance on gas fired generation.
Anyway you look at it our wholesale and retail energy markets are utterly broken and need radical reform or nationalisation.
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I've already said the standing charges also cover transmission in each area, in a couple of posts above, there are many contributing factors.

Gas going up puts up the price of electricity, as a lot of our electricity is reliant on gas (as I mentioned above), everyone knows that. But another problem is having less gas to go around (for all of Europe, which is interlinked), and actually use, when demand is extremely high (and going to get higher). This means we (and everyone else)will have to rely more on more expensive sources of energy generation, to make up that difference.
Being more reliant on nuclear and interconnections can only cost more, as nuclear is extremely expensive (as electricity imports usually are).

Even with high gas prices (which is about 100% more than they traditionally were), gas is still quite cheap per kWh of electricity generation, compared to other energy sources. Renewables are not necessarily low-cost, offshore wind, hydropower, and geothermal are all much more expensive than gas. Onshore wind and solar are cheaper, but loads of morons complain about them.

When winter comes there won't be enough gas to go around, and when it can't meet demand then the slack will have to be taken up elsewhere, and the prices will get jacked.

We have next to zero control of the gas production/ wholesale cost, and the distribution/ retail of that would be completely pointless to nationalise, as it would still be buying gas at high rates (so has to sell at high rates). It would cost a fortune to nationalise the retail arm (which doesn't make much profit), the gov would be better off spending that money to subsidise bills until it calms down.
 
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