Does anybody get the Southgate criticism…

I'll give myself a ton :)
Watched France the other night who struggled to get past Rep of Ireland yet they have now got maximum points from two games.
Job done for the French - what's the difference as far as Gareth's achievement in this campaign?
Nothing.
 
Sweden aren't a great team.
I didn't say they were, I said they were hard to break down and organised. Their strengths matched Italy's weaknesses. You can talk about over a two-legged affair favouring a better team, it does over a one=legged affair, but not over a full 8 game qualifying campaign. I remember us nearly doing the might Man Utd team of the late 80s over two legs. We did a much better villa squad over two legs in the zenith semi, happens all the time.

What cost italy was initially being paired with Spain in the group stages. Those two world cup qualifying campaigns they lost 3 in 21 games. Two of them 1-0 defeats where they didn't take their chances.

Of course Italy fans should be gutted not to win it, but they were unfortunate to a degree as well, and it wasn't a minnow.

Also, the next qualifying campaign, they didn't even make it to the final play offs. North Macedonia are yet another average footballing nation
a game they absolutely should win 99/100, this was the 1/100. Maybe the psychology of fear of failure kicked in after losing the previous play off.

The Italy team of the past 5-6 years has been very poor (for their high standards).
For their high standards yes, but they are still stacked with excellent defenders and midfielders.

A stronger manager in that final, would've smelt blood after that first 45 minutes.
I don't buy that, at that time they had 17 clean sheets in their previous 20 games, they hadn't conceded 2 in a games for 36 matches. The idea that that Italy would just roll over and capitulate isn't realistic. We were on top, but they are still a strong defensive side, one of the strongest at that time. They are also more than capable of hitting on the break.
The subs made were dreadful. They were far too late to change the game.
We have no idea which players were carrying injuries, which had missed training, and which were capable of doing the jobs he needed. What exactly should we have done sub-wise? There is never a guarantee that subs will have a positive impact.

Again, last week showed how poor Italy really are. They do a lot of huffing and puffing without actually hurting opposition.
They lack the killer instinct, but they win the vast majority of their games, they scored twice against Belgium and 1 against Spain in competitive games just after beating us, they'd failed to score in just one of the previous 29 games.

Our performance against them this weak was a sign that we can limit most teams to a handful of opportunities, and we can score against the stingiest of defences.
 
Last edited:
Just checked Grealish stats 2 goals and 3 assists in 25 games for England.

For free scoring Man City 67 games, just 7 goals and 9 assists.

Needs more end product.
He’s not had a chance for England though and I bet most of those caps are subs caps….he’s been a bit part player….
His ability on the ball and retaining it is only matched by gazza and stats can’t measure the value for the team in retaining possession at international level
Grealish is fantastic at creating for others from absolutely nothing and 3 players we have are world class; Kane, Bellingham and grealish. End of.
 
He’s not had a chance for England though and I bet most of those caps are subs caps….he’s been a bit part player….
So your basing your knowledge of what he would do in an England shirt on gut feel rather than evidence that he has done it. He has started 8 games for England and not made himself undroppable in any of those starts.

His ability on the ball and retaining it is only matched by gazza and stats can’t measure the value for the team in retaining possession at international level
We've got plenty of players who can retain possession, in that wide role his job is to create and score, he doesn't do that. Having someone in purely because they can dribble isn't enough at the top level. He's a bit of a dicky dancer, lacks the tactical brain to match his twinkle toes. Still not exactly a bad player, and a great option from the bench.

Gazza, played with his head up, yes Grealish can dribble like him, but he can't pass like him, doesn't have the vision or weight of pass. The comparison to Gazza has a veneer of credibility, but scratch it and it peels away
 
He’s not had a chance for England though and I bet most of those caps are subs caps….he’s been a bit part player….
His ability on the ball and retaining it is only matched by gazza and stats can’t measure the value for the team in retaining possession at international level
Grealish is fantastic at creating for others from absolutely nothing and 3 players we have are world class; Kane, Bellingham and grealish. End of.
Thats rubbish. most players in this england team and the prem can retain the ball and keep possesion. He knows how to win free kicks which he does by cheating. Its not the same thing.

Its like saying paddy mcnair is a better option than howson. 😛
 
There is also a racial element to it as well, they see him supporting taking the knee which the rabid foamed mouth bigots despise.
@Durham Red I see you laugh at a lot of my posts which is odd, what is your take on the racial element to the criticism Gareth receives? What is your opinion on taking the knee is support of anti racist groups and discrimination?
 
Thats rubbish. most players in this england team and the prem can retain the ball and keep possesion. He knows how to win free kicks which he does by cheating. Its not the same thing.

Its like saying paddy mcnair is a better option than howson. 😛
Grealish is the most fouled player in the prem - that isn't because he is cheating. It's because of his skill, either running at players or shielding the ball. He's the best we have at those skills. His goal output and involvement could be improved. He's having a better season at City, so hopefully that will translate to England as well.
 
He’s not had a chance for England though and I bet most of those caps are subs caps….he’s been a bit part player….
His ability on the ball and retaining it is only matched by gazza and stats can’t measure the value for the team in retaining possession at international level
Grealish is fantastic at creating for others from absolutely nothing and 3 players we have are world class; Kane, Bellingham and grealish. End of.
I like Jack Grealish but he'll never be as good as Bukayo Saka is already at the age of 21. I'd also pick Rashford over Grealish - when both are at the top of their game, Rashford is a far more potent weapon.
 
Grealish is the most fouled player in the prem - that isn't because he is cheating. It's because of his skill, either running at players or shielding the ball. He's the best we have at those skills. His goal output and involvement could be improved. He's having a better season at City, so hopefully that will translate to England as well.
theres a reason he wins the most free kicks and thats because he constantly sticks his legs in the way of defenders to initiate contact and buys fouls. He would rather get a free kick than do something with the ball.

Hes a good player and would be a better player if he stayed on his feet but shouldnt be starting in this england team.

 
I didn't say they were, I said they were hard to break down and organised. Their strengths matched Italy's weaknesses. You can talk about over a two-legged affair favouring a better team, it does over a one=legged affair, but not over a full 8 game qualifying campaign. I remember us nearly doing the might Man Utd team of the late 80s over two legs. We did a much better villa squad over two legs in the zenith semi, happens all the time.

What cost italy was initially being paired with Spain in the group stages. Those two world cup qualifying campaigns they lost 3 in 21 games. Two of them 1-0 defeats where they didn't take their chances.

Of course Italy fans should be gutted not to win it, but they were unfortunate to a degree as well, and it wasn't a minnow.
Ok, you said a decent team. Sweden aren't a poor team, admittedly, but I certainly wouldn't be worried about them. On their day they might spring a surprise result, especially at home, but over 2 legs, then sorry, but Italy should be putting them to bed.

Not only did they get KO'd, but they didn't even score against them in 180 minutes. That is extremely poor. Sweden aren't that 'decent'. That was more of a case of how poor Italy were/are than how 'decent' Sweden were.
a game they absolutely should win 99/100, this was the 1/100. Maybe the psychology of fear of failure kicked in after losing the previous play off.
Exactly! A game they should win. Psychology of fear or not. They have zero excuses. None whatsoever. They had over 30 shots in that game alone I believe? Simply embarrassing.

For their high standards yes, but they are still stacked with excellent defenders and midfielders
They had some good defenders/midfielders, but their fire power was terrible by their standards.

I don't buy that, at that time they had 17 clean sheets in their previous 20 games, they hadn't conceded 2 in a games for 36 matches. The idea that that Italy would just roll over and capitulate isn't realistic. We were on top, but they are still a strong defensive side, one of the strongest at that time. They are also more than capable of hitting on the break.
First half we threatened them and not once did I think that this looks like a team that are good defensively. Even the game before us, Spain ripped them to shreds and if they had a decent striker they would have put Italy to bed well before ET and Penalties.

We have no idea which players were carrying injuries, which had missed training, and which were capable of doing the jobs he needed. What exactly should we have done sub-wise? There is never a guarantee that subs will have a positive impact
We all know Mount should've been hooked well before he did. He was ghosting in that game the majority of the second half. And we all know Grealish should've been given a lot more than 21 minutes. This is the same Grealish that changed the game when he came on against Denmark in the semi's!

And as for bringing on Rashford/Sancho without barely having a kick, for them to take a penalty in the shoot out, well that had disaster written all over it. Southgate as a very very experienced player (and someone who knows fine well what it's like to take a crucial penalty for England under extreme pressure) and should have been very aware of bringing on a couple of young kids to take a penalty without getting into the game first.

They lack the killer instinct, but they win the vast majority of their games, they scored twice against Belgium and 1 against Spain in competitive games just after beating us, they'd failed to score in just one of the previous 29 games.

Our performance against them this weak was a sign that we can limit most teams to a handful of opportunities, and we can score against the stingiest of defences.
They also failed to beat Bulgaria and Northern Ireland not long after the final - 2 huge world cup qualifiers. Bulgaria and Northern Ireland for goodness sake.....Oh and don't forget they also had a further 2 world cup qualifiers against Switzerland in which they failed to beat on either occasions. I definitely understand Switzerland are a good team, but they finished 2 points off them in qualifying. 2 points extra needed against either Bulgaria/Northern Ireland. And then the fact they had yet another lifeline with facing a very easy first round draw against North Macedonia in the play offs...and still failed to even reach the final KO stages of the play offs.

Again, I still stand by Italy were truly not as good as they have been or not even as good as some suggest.

Lets see how they get on in our group. On paper they should breeze to 2nd place to qualify for the Euro's and at worst, if they don't, I believe they should qualify for the Play Offs (via Nations League).
 
He’s not had a chance for England though and I bet most of those caps are subs caps….he’s been a bit part player….
His ability on the ball and retaining it is only matched by gazza and stats can’t measure the value for the team in retaining possession at international level
Grealish is fantastic at creating for others from absolutely nothing and 3 players we have are world class; Kane, Bellingham and grealish. End of.
But he didn't retain the ball against Italy, he was in fact the worst player on the pitch for England from that point of view. I like him, but others are much more of a threat.
 
@Durham Red I see you laugh at a lot of my posts which is odd, what is your take on the racial element to the criticism Gareth receives? What is your opinion on taking the knee is support of anti racist groups and discrimination?
Southgate is a vocal supporter of all anti-racism campaigns including taking the knee. We've heard 'fans' booing taking the knee, it's hardly a leap to see how that hatred of anti-racism would prejudice some fans views of Southgate. Especially when the Dailly Mail, GBNews and other media parrot that same anti-southgate sentiment.
 
Southgate is a vocal supporter of all anti-racism campaigns including taking the knee. We've heard 'fans' booing taking the knee, it's hardly a leap to see how that hatred of anti-racism would prejudice some fans views of Southgate. Especially when the Dailly Mail, GBNews and other media parrot that same anti-southgate sentiment.
I don’t expect a good response or a response at all from the tagged poster.
 
Southgate is a vocal supporter of all anti-racism campaigns including taking the knee. We've heard 'fans' booing taking the knee, it's hardly a leap to see how that hatred of anti-racism would prejudice some fans views of Southgate. Especially when the Dailly Mail, GBNews and other media parrot that same anti-southgate sentiment.
Potentially true but a lot of these guys (and I say guys as it is mainly angry gammony men) scream hate at virtually every England manager who isn't winning trophies, even without the taking the knee stuff.
 
Exactly! A game they should win. Psychology of fear or not. They have zero excuses. None whatsoever. They had over 30 shots in that game alone I believe? Simply embarrassing.
No one is excusing that, they should have beaten both Sweden and N Macedonia. But results over one game or even a two legged game don't determine the overall ability of any team.
They had some good defenders/midfielders, but their fire power was terrible by their standards.
Agreed, to an extent, I wouldn't call Immobile terrible. He isn't Kane level, but he's not terrible either

First half we threatened them and not once did I think that this looks like a team that are good defensively.
But they have experienced quality defenders, that know how to manage games and make adjustments to solve problems. Which is what they did.
We didn't have that experience, we're getting there now though.

We all know Mount should've been hooked well before he did. He was ghosting in that game the majority of the second half. And we all know Grealish should've been given a lot more than 21 minutes. This is the same Grealish that changed the game when he came on against Denmark in the semi's!
We don't all know that, Grealish was being managed game to game because of a shin issue. We have no idea how capable he was of playing more than 20 mins before his shin flared up again. Mount, I'll agree was becoming periphery in that game and no one would have complained if he got the hook after 70mins. But, we have to take into account it was a 120 min game, at the end of a long competition and players had to be managed through that.

And as for bringing on Rashford/Sancho without barely having a kick, for them to take a penalty in the shoot out, well that had disaster written all over it.
I think he should have given them 10mins to get up to speed, agreed. It was a gamble that failed. But that doesn't mean that bringing them on 10 mins earlier would have got us to pens or that alternative players taking a pen would have had a positive result. Normally you would bank on those players scoring pens, so you can understand the intent.

They also failed to beat Bulgaria and Northern Ireland not long after the final - 2 huge world cup qualifiers. Bulgaria and Northern Ireland for goodness sake.....Oh and don't forget they also had a further 2 world cup qualifiers against Switzerland in which they failed to beat on either occasions.
As discussed they didn't score enough, but that doesn't make them a push over either.

Lets see how they get on in our group. On paper they should breeze to 2nd place to qualify for the Euro's and at worst, if they don't, I believe they should qualify for the Play Offs (via Nations League).
I'd guess that they'll qualify comfortably in second, but who knows, they're very hot and cold.
 
So your basing your knowledge of what he would do in an England shirt on gut feel rather than evidence that he has done it. He has started 8 games for England and not made himself undroppable in any of those starts.


We've got plenty of players who can retain possession, in that wide role his job is to create and score, he doesn't do that. Having someone in purely because they can dribble isn't enough at the top level. He's a bit of a dicky dancer, lacks the tactical brain to match his twinkle toes. Still not exactly a bad player, and a great option from the bench.

Gazza, played with his head up, yes Grealish can dribble like him, but he can't pass like him, doesn't have the vision or weight of pass. The comparison to Gazza has a veneer of credibility, but scratch it and it peels away
Nothing is based on gut feel but what I see from my own eyes and I think majority of people agree.

I think you’re being very harsh on grealish’s abilities and the more Southgate doesn’t trust him the more he’ll not see his total potential (in the same way that Carrick openly talks about trust in his players)
Your entitled to your opinion but Grealish ought to be a certain starter if we want to keep the ball at international level to give ourselves the best opportunity for taking the next step and I really like Gareth the man, but, Gareth the manager just falls short given his fantastic squad available for the reasons above as well as a good intuitive feel for the right subs at the right time alongside adjusting formations as and when required in game in those big games lacks credible solutions….
 
Nothing is based on gut feel but what I see from my own eyes and I think majority of people agree.
I'm not convinced the majority of people feel that Grealish is a nailed on starter. If you gave them a squad list then I'm not entirely convinced that Grealish would be in the XI they choose......not that popularism proves anything mind.

I think you’re being very harsh on grealish’s abilities
Not at all, he's got great dribbling abilities, but it's a fact he doesn't really score many, and his creation is far less than people that release the ball quicker. He does make space for others but needs to get his head up and release the ball at the right time to take advantage.

I have a balanced view, he has the potential to be a productive player but he clearly isn't there at the top level yet. I'd be surprised if he's still at Man City in 18 months but he'' be at a borderline champions league side somewhere.
 
This was a poor Italian team. Any Italian team failing to qualify for back to back World Cups is poor. I don't buy the 'unbeaten' record as it was largely made up of terrible opponents.

Really? Portugal twice, Belgium, Switzerland, Netherlands, Spain twice, England. They're terrible teams? Without forensically checking I'd say about 25 of the teams they played were in FIFA's top 30 as well. Only about 6 of the teams in that run were actually terrible teams.
 
Back
Top